Persona 5 - THE WAIT IS FINALLY OVER

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Trix2000
Location: California

Re: Persona 5 - THE WAIT IS FINALLY OVER

Postby Trix2000 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:05 pm

Ringwraith wrote:Also, not got time to go in-depth, but yes, all those spoiler'd bits.
Just yes.
I pegged something was wrong, but they laid it out way better than I expected.

I knew there was gonna be something I didn't see coming, and yet I was still unprepared for the reality. The worst part is it is SO EASY TO MISS, and the scenes they flash back to are NOTHING NEW.

That it was pancakes that were Akechi's downfall makes me giggle, though.


Also I think the bad ending is if you try and make a deal by selling out people, then the plan fails with predictable results.

I believe so, though I did not try it. I almost ended up picking the bad route, though, because my read of the situation wasn't that I was selling out friends, but rather that Sae was already mostly on my side and it was meant to be a measure of trust...? Also, what the denizens of the Velvet Room said just before about "remember your bonds" was making me lean along those lines.

Except then it pops up with "Is this really a good idea?" and I immediately recognized it could be a good/bad ending trigger and reconsidered. Kind-of glad I did - I wouldn't like being shot for real.
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Ringwraith

Re: Persona 5 - THE WAIT IS FINALLY OVER

Postby Ringwraith » Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:09 pm

It's realising Sae's only coming around to the story as it's being truthful and adhering to its own sense of honour and justice, spreading the blame for something that was probably going to fail, being a lone decoy, doesn't really fit with that.
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Trix2000
Location: California

Re: Persona 5 - THE WAIT IS FINALLY OVER

Postby Trix2000 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:40 pm

Yeah, it certainly makes sense NOW. :P
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Ringwraith

Re: Persona 5 - THE WAIT IS FINALLY OVER

Postby Ringwraith » Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:14 am

Then again, I always like options where you can metaphorically hang yourself.
Especially if you have to keep repeatedly doing an obviously-stupid thing. Like The Witcher 2.

Speaking of more general cleverness relating to the interrogation: it also gives an amusing explanation if you fail to meet a deadline and the ensuing consequences begin to play out, even though they clearly didn't as you're there in interrogation. The drugs are causing some fake memories and hallucinations.
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Trix2000
Location: California

Re: Persona 5 - THE WAIT IS FINALLY OVER

Postby Trix2000 » Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:58 am

Ringwraith wrote:Then again, I always like options where you can metaphorically hang yourself.
Especially if you have to keep repeatedly doing an obviously-stupid thing. Like The Witcher 2.

...And now I'm reminded of that one Spoiler Warning episode from The Old Republic, with the trial.

Speaking of more general cleverness relating to the interrogation: it also gives an amusing explanation if you fail to meet a deadline and the ensuing consequences begin to play out, even though they clearly didn't as you're there in interrogation. The drugs are causing some fake memories and hallucinations.

Hmm, that does work out better than prior games (4 basically just went "YOU GET HEADACHE AND THEN MAGICALLY IT NEVER HAPPENED"). I never really thought about it, though, since there's practically no reason to miss the deadline unless you deliberately put things off a ton. I did get a couple game overs, but all you get is the usual Velvet Room spiel of "Oh noes, you have fallen, how tragic" that you never actually sit through.
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Ringwraith

Re: Persona 5 - THE WAIT IS FINALLY OVER

Postby Ringwraith » Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:22 am

Part of the game over speech is voiced now.
Although it's not as long as previous games.
I didn't actually bother to check if they change however...

For reference from prior ones:
"Death is not a hunter unbeknownst to its prey.
One is always aware that it lies in wait.
Though life is merely a journey to the grave,
it must not be undertaken without hope.
Only then will a traveler's story live on,
cherished by those who bid him farewell."

"Life is truth, and never a dream...
All souls know this from birth...
The truth is something that is chosen and grasped...
Something discovered with one's vision and will.
Only by gaining that does the seeker become truth himself,
a cord that connects past and future."
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Trix2000
Location: California

Re: Persona 5 - THE WAIT IS FINALLY OVER

Postby Trix2000 » Sat Apr 22, 2017 1:31 am

Technically I should know since I've seen it a handful of times, but it's not all that memorable for me. :/

Gonna push through to the finish this weekend, hopefully. I MUST KNOW HOW IT ENDS.

Factorio update Tuesday might be relevant...
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Thomas

Re: Persona 5 - THE WAIT IS FINALLY OVER

Postby Thomas » Sat Apr 22, 2017 7:54 am

Does Makoto always take the lead in the Futaba level scenes? I can't tell whether its dependent on your relationship or not.

For example, is it always Makoto who grabs at the protagonists leg?
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Ringwraith

Re: Persona 5 - THE WAIT IS FINALLY OVER

Postby Ringwraith » Sat Apr 22, 2017 2:41 pm

Pretty much anything in the main story sequences is fixed.
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Trix2000
Location: California

Re: Persona 5 - THE WAIT IS FINALLY OVER

Postby Trix2000 » Sat Apr 22, 2017 7:36 pm

I feel like Makoto is geared a bit towards being the 'default/canon' romance option (much like, I think, Yukiko in 4 and... I don't know if there was one in 3). It's subtle, though, so I'm not sure if it's even them trying to encourage it so much as adding something unexpected to her character. I'm not doing a relationship with any of the girls on this run-through anyways.

She does take the lead a lot on discussions on what to do next, which I think is a good thing - she's INCREDIBLY smart and has a mountain of intuition. There's a reason her codename is Queen, I think. :)


Anyways, back into super spoiler territory. For reference, this is regarding the sixth dungeon:

And so Pleasant Boy falls...

Shido's dungeon really caught me by surprise, and it was only through sheer determination (and continuous use of SP accessories) that I got through all of it in one run, because that dungeon is incredibly long. I'd almost call it a slog, but it felt more like a test of endurance since progress was fairly steady. Turning into mice is hilariously cute.

Capping off the endurance march was the final few fights, and boy does the game not pull any punches on that. First you fight Cleaner, who wasn't a terribly hard fight by itself but wasn't a pushover by any means. I thought that would be everything, but then of course AKECHI shows up on our way out (no saves yet) - I knew we hadn't heard the last of him, but I didn't expect he'd figure it out so quickly!

So okay, another boss fight, I figure I can handle this - didn't spend too much on Cleaner. But then it turns out to be THREE FIGHTS in a row - none of them particularly nasty, but all of them requiring some level of buffing and strategy to bring down without losing people. Twice I almost burned a Soma because my reserves were getting low, though it turned out I did not need it. Surprising, considering I was not exactly thrifty with my skills in those fights, and I'd just come off of doing the entire dungeon besides... and I was not cheap in the dungeon either (dyne skills costing a bit more than accessories can provide).

I have a feeling I'd have burned that Soma on a harder difficulty - maybe even two. All those fights in a row with NO SAVES, with only a single break after Cleaner to heal up. A bit of a wake-up call considering most of the fights prior had only been of moderate challenge at best, and none of them stressing my SP levels nearly that much. Though all that said, I actually kinda like that things are ramping up, both in gameplay and narrative, so I can't really fault the game here. It was a pretty good send-off for Akechi, and really highlighted his issues.

...But holy crap, crazy Akechi looks SCARY. I could not be anything but creeped out by his look, talk, and mannerisms. They sold his real character like it was going out of style.


Hit the 100 hour mark now, and still suspect I have a significant chunk ahead of me. I've not been real fast, so the time may be longer than average, but still... this is a LONG game.

EDIT: OMG I just fixed the laptop and TANAKA the sales guy is on it. Talk about a callback.
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Ringwraith

Re: Persona 5 - THE WAIT IS FINALLY OVER

Postby Ringwraith » Sat Apr 22, 2017 7:59 pm

This is why you should've done the laptop earlier!
It's pretty excellent.
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Thomas

Re: Persona 5 - THE WAIT IS FINALLY OVER

Postby Thomas » Sat Apr 22, 2017 8:38 pm

The instant win ability for ambushed is just the worst. It's like no-one even playtested it. I assumed you'd get the EXP and gold for winning, but you don't. Just jump on a shadow and see "You have no space for more masks" - because it's meant to give you a mask but of course everyone will fill up their empty persona slots quickly. If it didn't instant win you could have chosen if you wanted to remove an old mask and make space for the new one, but because it instant won you the ambush you don't get to do that.

The stealth is powerful enough, that if I wanted to avoid fights, I'd just avoid fights. If I initiate an ambush I want something out of it.

-------------------

On better things, the money reading ability is incredible. Seeing my cash pile up in moments.
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Ringwraith

Re: Persona 5 - THE WAIT IS FINALLY OVER

Postby Ringwraith » Sat Apr 22, 2017 8:43 pm

Insta-kill only works when ambushing.
Slap them in the face to start a normal fight.

Besides, as it only works on stuff well below your level, you're not really getting any experience from it even if you fought them normally.

(Also I disagree with the "default/assumed" romance option in 4 being Yukiko, I'd say it's more Rise if anyone, because in a nice change from usual character interactions, she'll flirt regardless).
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Trix2000
Location: California

Re: Persona 5 - THE WAIT IS FINALLY OVER

Postby Trix2000 » Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:15 pm

Ringwraith wrote:Insta-kill only works when ambushing.
Slap them in the face to start a normal fight.

Besides, as it only works on stuff well below your level, you're not really getting any experience from it even if you fought them normally.

Yeah, but the problem is it really doesn't take that many levels for it to happen. I was getting it within the same palace I was working on, and I've not been all that overleveled. It happens in Mementos constantly.

If it gave some sort of money/exp reward for this I'd be okay with it, even if it was minor, but it makes grinding for money a pain because you can't ambush a lot of things while doing it. Getting a persona would be okay if it let you switch them out like you normally can when full.

It's annoying and doesn't feel like a bonus at all, more like a hinderance.

(Also I disagree with the "default/assumed" romance option in 4 being Yukiko, I'd say it's more Rise if anyone, because in a nice change from usual character interactions, she'll flirt regardless).

...Okay, yeah, now that you mention it Rise is more apt. It's been a bit since I last played so I'd forgotten how cozy she gets with you.


More progress:

Shido is down, and that was yet another endurance fight, though it didn't feel nearly as bad as Akechi's in that respect... probably because it was all in one go. I did end up burning a Soma for the third phase, but more for safety than actually needing to - I have plenty of other SP items still. Best calling card yet. :)

My concerns for there being something more are clearly warranted now, though I still have no details beyond suspicious things (like the people acting strange). It must be whatever is at the bottom of Mementos, but all I have are guesses and theories... and no idea what could be down there. The fact that I still haven't finished Magician and Fool confidants is a pretty big clue that we're still not done, though.
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Ringwraith

Re: Persona 5 - THE WAIT IS FINALLY OVER

Postby Ringwraith » Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:35 pm

Trix2000 wrote:
Ringwraith wrote:Insta-kill only works when ambushing.
Slap them in the face to start a normal fight.

Besides, as it only works on stuff well below your level, you're not really getting any experience from it even if you fought them normally.

Yeah, but the problem is it really doesn't take that many levels for it to happen. I was getting it within the same palace I was working on, and I've not been all that overleveled. It happens in Mementos constantly.

I really don't find this unless I'm in a section behind where I "am" currently.
One palace did have enemies that got insta-killed, but only one particular type of encounter (as they were quite a bit lower than others), and seemingly only after I'd already obtained them as a persona?
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Trix2000
Location: California

Re: Persona 5 - THE WAIT IS FINALLY OVER

Postby Trix2000 » Sun Apr 23, 2017 1:34 am

Hmm, I do have a habit of getting most all of the personas I encounter fairly quickly, so if that's a factor I could see it.

Moar endgame spoilerz, though I am still unsure how much more there is to go exactly:

Totally called it that the bottom of Mementos would be crucial, and something is down there. I think this is the final dungeon? It's feeling like it, and pretty neat.

What was less neat was one of the early enemies brainwashing my entire group, then nuking us to death while I watched helplessly as my party beat itself up. That was a particularly not fun game-over.

On the plus side, haven't had much issue with the enemies otherwise, and the fact that I can heal at the entrance is nice. I've found all of ONE safe room so far, though, which is making these longer stretches between saves unnerving, particularly this late in the game. At least the experience is great.
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Trix2000
Location: California

Re: Persona 5 - THE WAIT IS FINALLY OVER

Postby Trix2000 » Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:28 am

Well... 111 hours and I've finally finished.

The entire time, even before the game came out, I wondered how this game would match up to Persona 4, which was a game I enjoyed so much that I wasn't sure anything could top it. And to be perfectly honest, part of me isn't sure that P5 actually managed it.

...Except that I also can't rate it lower, because it measures up to 4's quality in every way I can think of. Great story, wonderful characters, engaging battles system, MUCH improved dungeons, and more.

Of course, you might think it shouldn't matter - they're both great games, so why worry which is better? I'd agree, but my brain wants to rank things for some reason so here goes... I think P5 takes the top favorite slot for me over 4, if only because it came out several years later and had the advantages that come with it. I spent a lot of time trying to reign in my expectations so I wouldn't be disappointed when the game finally came out, but in the end it turned out unnecessary.

So kudos to the devs for managing to pull it off once again. It gives me hope that we'll only see more and better games in the future, and hopefully not with another decade wait! At the very least, this and Horizon have more than made the PS4 purchase worth it. :)

Definitely gonna NG+ this one... eventually. I gotta take a break for a while first, because as much as I loved the entire experience, 111 hours of the same game gets a little exhausting. Also Factorio...


Some (spoilery) comments about the ending...

Really loved how the last section played out, especially with the inclusion of the city. The stakes haven't been this high since... well, okay, I guess P3 kind-of had the whole world-ending bit at the end too, but I feel like this one did a lot better job at selling it. The climb up to the final boss felt great too, what with the continuous "Life Will Change" music and all... marred only by my accidentally killing myself 2/3 of the way up with Mapsiodyne on those Kali enemies. Oops (Seriously, WHY NO SAVE POINTS).

Fight was suitably epic, though I have no idea what most of the debuffs did - I was able to kill off the arms usually within a single turn, and I didn't notice any real detriment from their debuffs (aside from the sword's double cost thing which was annoying). Burned a single Soma, though I think I might have needed a bit more had Futaba not been nice to charge everybody up towards the end. And somehow, only one death - Yusuke killing himself! (I need to stop doing that.)

Not sure if I have a ton to say about the parts that follow - I wasn't completely sold on needing to turn myself in, but then showing everyone putting forth their efforts to help me out with it made it entirely worth it. This game did a great job with making the social links (I can't say Confidants :/) matter in more ways than one, and them coming together multiple times in the ending was great.

Morgana showing up again wasn't a huge surprise - I had a feeling the game wasn't going to make him disappear for good. Still, I think his excuse for staying away until I got free was a little lacking! Still, I got to keep my kitty so yay.

Final day played out much like 4's, so not a whole lot more I could say. I do like that I apparently get to keep some social link benefits to the next playthrough - that's a nice addition. Also, no true ending shenanigans that I can see... but then, there aren't any lose plot threads and the Metaverse is gone, so... happy ending for all!


Think I did a pretty good job for a first run-through in terms of progress - actually got most of the links finished (skipped Sun and Fortune, un-fortune-ately :P) and full personal stats. Turned out I wasn't quite as limited on time as I thought, though I'm still surprised I got Empress finished on literally the last day - the day after Finals! Maybe I could have been less pressured to complete things on my first playthrough, but then I finished up without leaving much hanging so I think it worked out fairly well.

Curious to know people's levels for the final boss, though. At some point around the mid/lategame I stopped any real grinding and lost track of whether or not I was under/overleveled. Never felt like I couldn't handle things, though.




...Has this game infected me with Rocketeer-itis?
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Ringwraith

Re: Persona 5 - THE WAIT IS FINALLY OVER

Postby Ringwraith » Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:37 am

Well, due to the scaled experience, it pulls you out of being underlevelled and actively grinds overlevelling to a halt anyway, so usually it should be right.
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Thomas

Re: Persona 5 - THE WAIT IS FINALLY OVER

Postby Thomas » Sun Apr 23, 2017 3:21 pm

I like being able to see everyone's average level over the network. I overgrind by default but I have never managed to get more than 3-4 levels ahead of average (looking at deadline day, you can get a 9 level advantage by completing a dungeon the first day it's available).

The networks also a really nice shortcut. Am I able to do this tonight? Oh a 100% of people slept, so I guess not. The travel map could do with some tweaking though, I really felt like I was missing being able to zoom out. It's a bit of a pain to scroll over to the church and see if it's a Hifumi day.
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Ringwraith

Re: Persona 5 - THE WAIT IS FINALLY OVER

Postby Ringwraith » Sun Apr 23, 2017 4:13 pm

Although most days people will also message you if they're available.
So you can simply check your messages and go straight to them from there.
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Thomas

Re: Persona 5 - THE WAIT IS FINALLY OVER

Postby Thomas » Sun Apr 23, 2017 4:20 pm

I do appreciate that feature (but you get some texts not all texts if you're being choosy).

But Iwai and Oya are so needy! Dudes, if I haven't responded to your texts in a month, take a hint.
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Ringwraith

Re: Persona 5 - THE WAIT IS FINALLY OVER

Postby Ringwraith » Sun Apr 23, 2017 4:54 pm

They're just letting you know.
Plus they stop asking for a while you've not spoken to them, and will just sometimes send a reminder.
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Trix2000
Location: California

Re: Persona 5 - THE WAIT IS FINALLY OVER

Postby Trix2000 » Sun Apr 23, 2017 5:35 pm

I know Ohya talks a lot, but Iwai always seemed fairly rare... though maybe it's because I didn't get his started until past halfway through and didn't skip him so much.

My biggest gripe was that the indicators were not very specific, so one over Shibuya could represent ANY of the links there. Using the network thing helps to figure out what may be available, but it wasn't always reliable depending on where you stood for completing the relevant dungeon.

Interesting note, if you go to any of the places outside the main three stops you have to pay a small fee for the train... except if you go directly there from their message on your phone you skipped this entirely. How the heck does that work? :P

Ringwraith wrote:Well, due to the scaled experience, it pulls you out of being underlevelled and actively grinds overlevelling to a halt anyway, so usually it should be right.

You notice this fairly quickly once you have the Moon social link maxxed so all your party members get the same exp. By the time I'd finished the next dungeon or so, everyone was leveling at about the same time - likely a consequence of both the level-scaling and the raw amount scaling up which reduced the effect of differences in their totals. Got to the point where in the last level, I'd get EVERYONE leveling on the same fight - even found out the game has to use two sections on the normal results screen for it if this happens.

Thing is, experience from the last dungeon or two is really good, and I could see being able to grind it up significantly farther than I actually did - especially since there were still enemies ahead of my level and giving thousands.

Plus I've heard that reaching 99 is possible so I wonder how difficult that actually is to accomplish. I mean, you never need to get anywhere near that high (I was 75 when I finished, which happens to be the minimum to get all party member skills) but it seems possible.

Probably going to bump up the difficulty on the NG+, though maybe not the hardest one... although since I believe I get to keep and summon my compendium like prior games I'll probably end up a bit overpowered in the earlygame where it is most difficult.
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Ringwraith

Re: Persona 5 - THE WAIT IS FINALLY OVER

Postby Ringwraith » Sun Apr 23, 2017 6:35 pm

You know square shows you whom is currently available there right now and if it will progress a rank or not, right?

By the way, Maniac difficulty is weird, so it cuts your experience and money earned (ugh) but the more important modifier is that all weakpoint damage is tripled.
For everyone.
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Thomas

Re: Persona 5 - THE WAIT IS FINALLY OVER

Postby Thomas » Sun Apr 23, 2017 9:14 pm

Trix2000 wrote:I know Ohya talks a lot, but Iwai always seemed fairly rare... though maybe it's because I didn't get his started until past halfway through and didn't skip him so much.

I'm pretty sure it's just based on how close they are to ranking up and how little you've seen them. Both Ohya and Iwai I did the first step and then ignored them.

Trix2000 wrote:Think I did a pretty good job for a first run-through in terms of progress - actually got most of the links finished (skipped Sun and Fortune, un-fortune-ately :P) and full personal stats. Turned out I wasn't quite as limited on time as I thought, though I'm still surprised I got Empress finished on literally the last day - the day after Finals! Maybe I could have been less pressured to complete things on my first playthrough, but then I finished up without leaving much hanging so I think it worked out fairly well.

Did you skip Fortune almost entirely? If so, getting so much completed is doubly impressive, Fortune is like Kawakemi, it's a link that lets you pay money to save time. You can get a 50% stat levelling up boost and you can skip spending time on social links where you're not going to rank up.

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