Netflix MCU shows - Daredevil, Jesica Jones etc.

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Supahewok

Re: Netflix MCU shows - Daredevil, Jesica Jones etc.

Postby Supahewok » Mon Sep 26, 2016 6:50 am

Andrew wrote:Luke Cage releases this Friday.

Here's hoping it's in the vein of Daredevil good, instead of Jessica Jones awful.

Jessica Jones was a'ight. Doesn't really stand up to repeated viewings, but I enjoyed it. Had the third memorable villain of the entire MCU.

Also Luke Cage is this week? Dammit, I've got tests.
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Andrew

Re: Netflix MCU shows - Daredevil, Jesica Jones etc.

Postby Andrew » Mon Sep 26, 2016 6:54 am

Awful was probably not the right word.

Dull, is probably a better adjective for how I felt about JJ.

And yeah, it completely caught me off guard too. I wasn't expecting it until Oct/Nov. I don't have tests or anything but it's coming out just as Arrow, Flash.. etc are starting!
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JadedDM

Re: Netflix MCU shows - Daredevil, Jesica Jones etc.

Postby JadedDM » Mon Sep 26, 2016 3:41 pm

I thought Jessica Jones was fantastic. I liked it even better than Daredevil. I'm actually pretty bummed it will take so long for a second season, but at least she'll be in the Defenders.

I am looking forward to Luke Cage, though.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Netflix MCU shows - Daredevil, Jesica Jones etc.

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Mon Sep 26, 2016 3:55 pm

Its the difference in style from a low action noire drama and high action brawler.And like all of sf and fantasy,these completely different genres get lumped under the banner of "superhero" because the protagonist is a superhuman.Which is silly,as has just been demonstrated.
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Andrew

Re: Netflix MCU shows - Daredevil, Jesica Jones etc.

Postby Andrew » Tue Sep 27, 2016 12:39 am

My main problem with Jessica Jones was the pacing. The entire season felt like it was off kilter either being a little too slow (mostly) or a little too fast (occasionally).

I like the actual character of Jessica Jones though, so seeing her in the Defenders, with a new cast and a new story around her, could improve it for me.

Anyway, Luke Cage. Yay.
Ninety-Three

Re: Netflix MCU shows - Daredevil, Jesica Jones etc.

Postby Ninety-Three » Tue Sep 27, 2016 1:39 am

Jessica Jones had a problem where the writer forced all the characters (villain included) to act like idiots because if their brains were on for two seconds, the carefully railroaded plot would fall apart. Jessica plans to kidnap a man, lock him in a room, and submit the result as evidence for a court of law. And it's not just a spur of the moment plan, this gets days of thought and serious resource investment. As a detective, she doesn't realize the obvious flaw in her plan. I got invested in the show just enough to care about the idea of Jessica winning, and the show felt designed to constantly frustrate that impulse. Every character fails, in completely preventable ways that cast them as utter morons, and none of the characters notice that anyone is a moron because this is just a lazy writer playing Hot Potato with the Idiot Ball.
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JadedDM

Re: Netflix MCU shows - Daredevil, Jesica Jones etc.

Postby JadedDM » Tue Sep 27, 2016 2:20 am

Ninety-Three wrote:Jessica plans to kidnap a man, lock him in a room, and submit the result as evidence for a court of law.

To prove he has the power to control people by speaking. Granted, it's unorthodox, but our justice system wasn't created to counter something like that. Put Kilgrave on trial, and he just tells the jury to find him not guilty and he's out free.
Ninety-Three

Re: Netflix MCU shows - Daredevil, Jesica Jones etc.

Postby Ninety-Three » Tue Sep 27, 2016 2:42 am

JadedDM wrote:
Ninety-Three wrote:Jessica plans to kidnap a man, lock him in a room, and submit the result as evidence for a court of law.

To prove he has the power to control people by speaking. Granted, it's unorthodox, but our justice system wasn't created to counter something like that. Put Kilgrave on trial, and he just tells the jury to find him not guilty and he's out free.

But she's not going to prove anything if the court refuses to hear her out because of obscure technicalities like "Admissible evidence" and "You can't go around kidnapping people, I think we have a rule about that". The justice system is so unprepared for Kilgrave that it's not even prepared to prove he exists, and anyone who has so much as watched a few episodes of Law and Order can foresee that problem.
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JadedDM

Re: Netflix MCU shows - Daredevil, Jesica Jones etc.

Postby JadedDM » Tue Sep 27, 2016 3:28 am

Proving his power is real isn't as difficult in a world after an alien invasion of NYC. You're right they might dismiss the evidence based on how it was obtained, but there really wasn't any other choice. It was a desperate act, but what else could she have done? Going through the proper channels wouldn't have worked.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Netflix MCU shows - Daredevil, Jesica Jones etc.

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Tue Sep 27, 2016 3:50 am

Not to mention that she did not want to prove that he was guilty,but rather that his victims were innocent.After doing that,she wouldnt be bothered about just snuffing him.
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Supahewok

Re: Netflix MCU shows - Daredevil, Jesica Jones etc.

Postby Supahewok » Tue Sep 27, 2016 9:20 am

How she planned to "prove" he had mind control was stupid anyhow. Shove mummy and daddy in there for reasons and hope something happens? All he had to do was play along with "forgiving" his parents. Which he didn't have to do cuz the wire was cut, but that's regardless of it being a stupid plan. What they needed to do was 1) use a muffler on him so he couldn't talk 2) use the parents as material witnesses who could explain the "science"
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Netflix MCU shows - Daredevil, Jesica Jones etc.

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Tue Sep 27, 2016 9:35 am

That wouldve been a huge gamble.Even someone who was not raped and traumatized by him would have a hard time going with that plan.
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Supahewok

Re: Netflix MCU shows - Daredevil, Jesica Jones etc.

Postby Supahewok » Tue Sep 27, 2016 10:08 am

Daemian Lucifer wrote:That wouldve been a huge gamble.Even someone who was not raped and traumatized by him would have a hard time going with that plan.

...and shoving his parents in there alone with him, people he hated, with a cop watching, wasn't? If nothing had happened, that cop would have arrested them all and let Killgrave loose.
Ninety-Three

Re: Netflix MCU shows - Daredevil, Jesica Jones etc.

Postby Ninety-Three » Tue Sep 27, 2016 1:11 pm

Let's take the best-case scenario of Jessica's plan.
Step 1: Lock Kilgrave in a room.
Step 2: Get him to demonstrate his mind control, and confess to mind-controlling Hope. Get some good witnesses to this, and also get it on video.
Step 3: ???
Step 4: The legal system declares that Hope is not guilty of murdering her parents.

Her plan isn't just desperate and shaky, it us unworkable. There is nothing you can put into step 3 to achieve her goals, and despite having plenty of time to form a plan, Jessica doesn't seem to have noticed this.

Jessica: "Okay, yes, Hope pulled the trigger which caused bullets to fatally enter her parents, but look, I proved mind control is real!"
Legal system: "That's interesting, and I believe you for some reason, but you still have to prove she was mind controlled."
Jessica: "I have this confession obtained under duress?"
Legal system: "Hahaha no."

She could try releasing her video evidence to the public alongside a plea for any jury members who see it to invoke jury nullification (a process by which the jury says "Yes they're guilty but we're declaring not guilty because we think the legal system is being misapplied"), but you could never convince someone of mind control using just a video and a couple witnesses swearing it's true, all that requires is for a few people to lie, no one would believe such a fantastical claim. Her only chance is to accept a guilty verdict, then convince the governor of New York to commute Hope's sentence (state governors can pardon state crimes the same way the President can pardon federal crimes).
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The Rocketeer

Re: Netflix MCU shows - Daredevil, Jesica Jones etc.

Postby The Rocketeer » Tue Sep 27, 2016 1:16 pm

HA! Mind control I can buy, but jury nullification? Keep this somewhere near reality, please.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Netflix MCU shows - Daredevil, Jesica Jones etc.

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Tue Sep 27, 2016 2:53 pm

What the hell are you two trying to pull here?Make every american here unable to become a juror?
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JadedDM

Re: Netflix MCU shows - Daredevil, Jesica Jones etc.

Postby JadedDM » Tue Sep 27, 2016 4:03 pm

So it's understood, I'm not saying this was a brilliant plan or even a good one, or that it had a high chance of success. I'm just arguing with the premise that it was the result of the idiot ball being passed around. There were no better plans. It was an act of desperation and a gamble, but they had no other options at that point.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Netflix MCU shows - Daredevil, Jesica Jones etc.

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Tue Sep 27, 2016 4:17 pm

JadedDM wrote:I'm just arguing with the premise that it was the result of the idiot ball being passed around.


Im not really on board with saying that someone being irrational due to trauma is holding the idiot ball.
Steve C

Re: Netflix MCU shows - Daredevil, Jesica Jones etc.

Postby Steve C » Tue Sep 27, 2016 5:29 pm

Nobody has to prove that Hope was mind controlled. Jessica was trying to prove it was possible. She is trying to create reasonable doubt for the jury. Which is enough. She did not care if Killgrave's parents got killed. Well, she did care a bit. Acceptable loss in her mind.
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Supahewok

Re: Netflix MCU shows - Daredevil, Jesica Jones etc.

Postby Supahewok » Tue Sep 27, 2016 9:03 pm

Steve C wrote:Nobody has to prove that Hope was mind controlled. Jessica was trying to prove it was possible. She is trying to create reasonable doubt for the jury. Which is enough. She did not care if Killgrave's parents got killed. Well, she did care a bit. Acceptable loss in her mind.

Using her parents as professional witnesses could have done that if that was her goal, a point I made upthread. They knew about the parasites or whatever that Killgrave radiated. Jessica had a lawyer right there who could handle the legal technicalities. There was no reason for Jessica to shove the parents in Killgrave's cell if all she wanted to do was get a not guilty verdict for Hope. It was a contrivance to get the plot moving again. The whole middle of Jessica Jones required a several dumb decisions from all over the cast to keep the status quo between the first few episodes and the last, and the whole thing would've been much better if cut down to 7 or 8 episodes.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Netflix MCU shows - Daredevil, Jesica Jones etc.

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Tue Sep 27, 2016 9:16 pm

Supahewok wrote:Using her parents as professional witnesses could have done that if that was her goal,


Which would be weaker than video evidence.Especially when a jury gets involved,which usually consists of regular people who prefer looking at video with their own eyes than listening to a scientist.

Supahewok wrote:There was no reason for Jessica to shove the parents in Killgrave's cell if all she wanted to do was get a not guilty verdict for Hope.


Aside from the one I mentioned above,there is also the reason that I cannot stress strongly enough,because all of you keep forgetting*,jessica is not in her right mind.Aside from hogarth,all of the people in that room were mind raped(and sexually raped in the case of jessica)by kilgrave.Ptsd in the real world,from regular traumas,can cause people to act irrationally,so imagine what someone taking full control of your mind would end up doing to a person.

*I blame run of the mill fiction for this,because most works treat mind control as something kooky and as severe as scraping your knee.And it really shouldnt be,because taking control over someone so thoroughly,forcing them to watch and experience their body doing stuff they are powerless to control is one of the worst tortures imaginable.
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Lachlan the Mad
Location: I come from the land down under, where women blow and men chunder

Re: Netflix MCU shows - Daredevil, Jesica Jones etc.

Postby Lachlan the Mad » Tue Sep 27, 2016 11:35 pm

Daemian Lucifer wrote:*I blame run of the mill fiction for this,because most works treat mind control as something kooky and as severe as scraping your knee.And it really shouldnt be,because taking control over someone so thoroughly,forcing them to watch and experience their body doing stuff they are powerless to control is one of the worst tortures imaginable.

*Points smugly at Steven Universe*
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Supahewok

Re: Netflix MCU shows - Daredevil, Jesica Jones etc.

Postby Supahewok » Wed Sep 28, 2016 12:55 am

Daemian Lucifer wrote:
Supahewok wrote:Using her parents as professional witnesses could have done that if that was her goal,


Which would be weaker than video evidence.Especially when a jury gets involved,which usually consists of regular people who prefer looking at video with their own eyes than listening to a scientist.


They had the testing videos from Kilgrave and the parents could probably have gotten their mitts on documentation if they wanted to.

Daemian Lucifer wrote:
Supahewok wrote:There was no reason for Jessica to shove the parents in Killgrave's cell if all she wanted to do was get a not guilty verdict for Hope.


Aside from the one I mentioned above,there is also the reason that I cannot stress strongly enough,because all of you keep forgetting*,jessica is not in her right mind.Aside from hogarth,all of the people in that room were mind raped(and sexually raped in the case of jessica)by kilgrave.Ptsd in the real world,from regular traumas,can cause people to act irrationally,so imagine what someone taking full control of your mind would end up doing to a person.

*I blame run of the mill fiction for this,because most works treat mind control as something kooky and as severe as scraping your knee.And it really shouldnt be,because taking control over someone so thoroughly,forcing them to watch and experience their body doing stuff they are powerless to control is one of the worst tortures imaginable.

I didn't want to address this because I haven't watched the show in a year and can't cite specific examples at this point, but fine. The show tries to portray Jessica's trauma throughout. Sometimes, it does a good job, like her guilt over Luke Cage. This time, it didn't. She'd been able to concoct complicated, rational plans for dealing with Kilgrave at different points of the show, including a couple of kidnap attempts (I think she captured him a total of 3 times, maybe 4?). And then sometimes she wouldn't, and there was no effective show of a change in emotions or mindset in between. Or if there was, it wasn't effectively conveyed to the audience. Sometimes she was patient and thoughtful, sometimes she wasn't, yet she acted the same through both. It was plot convenience stupidity to stretch out show time.
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4th Dimension

Re: Netflix MCU shows - Daredevil, Jesica Jones etc.

Postby 4th Dimension » Sun Oct 02, 2016 1:47 pm

I just spent too much time watching Luke Cage and I loved it. I liked the music, I liked some of the villains (they were all bastards but they had character) and I liked the way Luke tended to handle things, straightforward.
The ending with the cellphone is a bit smelly though and the end boss never really grabbed me. The whole thing with him just having around bulets that can pierce Luke's skin, the whole "Let's set up Luke" scheme and him having basically power armor to fight him in the last fight were smelly. On the other hand the last fight was something I would have expected out of Luke and not that bullshit with bullets.

Also doesn't the good doc ever learn that it is a mistake to keep trying to give powers to the god damned dangerous criminals?

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