Netflix MCU shows - Daredevil, Jesica Jones etc.

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4th Dimension

Netflix MCU shows - Daredevil, Jesica Jones etc.

Post by 4th Dimension » Sat Mar 19, 2016 10:00 am

Since people are complaining about posting in general TV thread about these things, and because their links are much more tenious to the MCU at large I made this thread for MCU Netflix shows.

Spoilers ahoy allthough I guess a good thing would be to spoil anything majorly spoilery in first couple of weeks or so of episodes release. And note up to which episode do the spoils go.

What follows are my off the cuff observations about the second season of the Daredevil.

Episode 1:
Still broke huh, I don't see when will you have time to solve that when we take into the account what is coming.
Frank, Frank, Frank overkill much? You could have done that in like half the shots.
Murdoch I have to say he is kicking the shits out of you and melee is supposed to be your area of expertise. You have a lot to learn if you are going to be fighting more ninjas by the end.
So that is 1-0 for the Punisher
So pretty good introduction for the Punisher and his juggernaut crusade.

Episode 2.
You are also adding the [spoilers]subplot about loosing the powers?[/spoiler] Really? I hope you know what you are doing writers.
So place your bets how many episodes will we be wondering when will Murdoch and Karen come clean to each other.
Also nice callback that what happened to her is still haunting her.
We shall form now on refer to this person to as Prosecutor Ass.
You did not just mention child porn to the Frankie? Now you and anyone involved even superficiality in it are going to die messily.
Yeah, you are not Batman to be able to have dozens of expensive suits of armor. Also I think it will need to be upgraded by the end of this season.
Yup Ass. A total Ass. Also I think you have NOWHERE near enough guns and men to take on Castle.
As a bad shot, I have to say you sniper guys are the worst shots ever.
Cliffhanger
That brings the score to 2-0 for the Punisher

Episode 3:
I did not want to use gender epithets but I'm upgrading the title of the DA from Ass to full blown Bitch.
Yay, Claire. Yay references to Jessica Jones.
Nice friendly rooftop chat. Also Frankie here is really channeling Konrad Cruise.
Nice Foggy speech. Probably wouldn't have worked, but was a nice moment.

What? Explosive tires?
Yeah guys I'm sure those bats will help against Punisher on a warpath.
But they might against DD. On the other hand you are like the exact threat he is equipped and trained to fight.

Really nice stairway scene. Basically only DD and shitton of guys between him and the exit.

Ooooohhh. Ominous Punisher logo.

Episode 4:
What are they doing with Punisher's origin!? He came back to life after a mortal injury and Men in Black (which one org. out of dozen?) were there to oversee it? I allways thought he is supposed to be badass normal.

I do hope we see more of Frank in next episodes.

Episode 5:
Hello there Elektra. Also another Jessica Jones reference. Seems she is in a bit of a legal trouble.
It was a nice introduction of Elektra. And explains Mat's attraction to her as someone with whom he can cut loose and not worry what she might say. Also Karen seems to be furthering her nosy potential future reporter plot.

Episode 6.
Ahhh Elektra. You sure have an interesting definition of a night out.
Also Murdoch, I don't think you have time to defend Castle and fight DA Bitch during day and fight ninjas with Elektra at night.
And what is the deal with DA Bitch?!? She is not only in it to convict him but she really wants him dead.
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4th Dimension

Re: Netflix MCU shows - Daredevil, Jesica Jones etc.

Post by 4th Dimension » Sat Mar 19, 2016 11:27 am

Episode 7:
You tell him Foggy, tell him exactly how shitty was his behavior.
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4th Dimension

Re: Netflix MCU shows - Daredevil, Jesica Jones etc.

Post by 4th Dimension » Sat Mar 19, 2016 1:26 pm

Episode 8-9:
These episodes were quite transformative for some of the characters.

Karen is finally firmly on her nosy investigative reporter track.

And Frank is now probably truly the Punisher. Before he was in it for revenge. But now he seems to be realizing it will never end and he might be okay with that.

And finally we have our dear Willson finally becoming the Kingpin. Again he was a joy to watch, and so is his interaction with the Punisher. They are soo strongly convinced that what they do is right.

And we have some ninja stuff but who cares.
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4th Dimension

Re: Netflix MCU shows - Daredevil, Jesica Jones etc.

Post by 4th Dimension » Sat Mar 19, 2016 2:42 pm

Episode 10:
Well the finale is definitively starting.
Those victims probably aren't victims but future Hand ninjas.

I wonder who hit the DA. The Hand and presumably the Blacksmith? But why?!? Also hitting DA is not the Punisher's style? I think it is since the is guilty of endangering the civilians throgh her negligence and was thus corrupt as fuck. Trying to indiscriminately whack everyone in the room on the other hand is not his MO.

Ahhh Fisk, still the scariest guy in any room. Also threatening Vanesa in reach of his arms? Bad Bad move Mat.

No no not in a hospital. They need help but it's likely others will need to be protected from them too.

Random hangar bar?!? Oh and hi random assassin so nice of you to get Elektra her sais back.

That is a LOT of ninjas and who is ordering all these hits?!?
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4th Dimension

Re: Netflix MCU shows - Daredevil, Jesica Jones etc.

Post by 4th Dimension » Sat Mar 19, 2016 3:42 pm

Episode 11:
I hope all this bussines with the Blacksmith and Stick ties back to the current Hand plot, because otherwise I feel they are kind of wasting the Punisher's screen time. If that was the Blacksmith he is a disappointment.

Also Madam Gao again. Yay.
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4th Dimension

Re: Netflix MCU shows - Daredevil, Jesica Jones etc.

Post by 4th Dimension » Sat Mar 19, 2016 4:43 pm

Episode 12:
Oh now it makes sense. Ninja fighting skills levelup.
Ahh so Colonel was behind it all along. It does not tie back to the Hand story line but it does fit Punisher a lot better making it his story. I also kind of like how the main stories of two characters Daredevil and Punisher are sort of only tangentially connected.

Also I looked the actor playing the colonel because the first time they showed him I was sure he was going to turn out ot be a bad guy coz I remembered seeing him in an uniform doing bad shit in some superhero media but I was not sure where. When everything went well in the courthouse I thought I was mistaken, but it turns out he played that shady Army General that hunts metahumans in Flash.


Also Punisher candy store.
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4th Dimension

Re: Netflix MCU shows - Daredevil, Jesica Jones etc.

Post by 4th Dimension » Sat Mar 19, 2016 5:54 pm

Episode 13:
Well this was a fun season. And they do change the team's status quite a bit. Also Mat you ass, you pring that up at the very end, you but.
One thing that might be a plot hole. I though that first episode was during summer, but the epilogue of the last episode is set during Chrismass?!? Was there a timeskip I did not notice, because most of the season basically happened during one or two weeks.

So Nelson & Murdock has ended. Nelson is now working for/with our favourite morally flexible asshole lawyer, Hogarth. So we might be seeing him in other shows. Especially since he seems to have been brought on to handle vigilante cases.

Elektra is of course not dead. I did not think that even for a moment knowing those double corpses in Claire's ex hospital and the Hand's of (not) Lazarus's Pit.

DDs powers/costume is now complete and now Page knows. We'll see if she can hack the writing part of the jurnalism, but so far signs are encouraging.

Punisher is also set on his Punisher crusade complete with skull shirt. I'm kind of disappointed that he only got to kill like 4 ninjas, I wanted him to be an even more unstoppable force. But this was also fine.


All in all fun one.
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Supahewok

Re: Netflix MCU shows - Daredevil, Jesica Jones etc.

Post by Supahewok » Sun Mar 20, 2016 6:35 am

4th Dimension wrote: Also I looked the actor playing the colonel because the first time they showed him I was sure he was going to turn out ot be a bad guy coz I remembered seeing him in an uniform doing bad shit in some superhero media but I was not sure where. When everything went well in the courthouse I thought I was mistaken, but it turns out he played that shady Army General that hunts metahumans in Flash.
Not just that. Clancy Brown was also the Kurgan in Highlander, and the voice of Lex Luthor in the DCAU. He has a history of playing characters on the... heavy side of the alignment pool. Almost to the point of type-casting, really.

I've just finished the show. I have some thoughts but am gonna sleep on them tonight since it's late as all hell.
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Supahewok

Re: Netflix MCU shows - Daredevil, Jesica Jones etc.

Post by Supahewok » Sun Mar 20, 2016 10:14 pm

Right, so. I'm not gonna put anything in spoiler tags. Don't read if you haven't finished the show.

My overriding thought on the whole season is that I really like the portrayal of Daredevil and Elektra's relationship. My interpretation is that it's a subtly abusive relationship played straight. Elektra is an enabler for Matt's darker and more wild impulses. The first time she's in his life, she almost caused him to flunk out of college without him giving it a second thought, with the inference that it was despite Foggy's concerns for Matt (which I infer based on that Foggy had known of her and that she was the reason Matt almost failed, along with Foggy's behavior this season). When she leaves, he's able to put his life together and move on. But the second, the very second she comes back into his life, he relapses after some token resistance, and once again runs his life into the ground. And he doesn't even make the connection, even after his friends break ties with him after he abandons them. It feels like a really good portrayal of a relationship where the abuse is more insidious than "wife-beater" or "makes you feel bad." Elektra is a terrible influence on him, which he refuses to acknowledge.

I forget the exact circumstances, but I was real afraid after the first couple episodes that the Punisher was just gonna be a right-wing gun nut gone bad. I really like his arc later. It didn't have much in the way of twists and turns, but I enjoyed the portrayal, particularly his outburst during his trial.

Surprisingly, I really liked Karen's character this season. I really appreciated the subtlety the writers used in portraying the repercussions of her shooting Wesley in her character. How she projected onto Castle, trying to convince herself that he was doing something right, to assuage her own guilt.

Foggy was great but underutilized, I feel. He doesn't get to beat up people with Matt and he doesn't get to chase leads with Karen, so he only gets something to do when the team is in court, but in this season the only trial lasted for only 2 episodes or so. I like the idea of him joining Hogarth's law firm to handle superhero cases; I believe in the comics that Matt is usually one of the two de facto superhero lawyers (the other being She Hulk), but splitting up the crime fighting with Matt and the lawyer stuff with Foggy feels like a more balanced way to give both characters their due show time, and leaves the door open for Foggy to pop in and out of other character's series.

Fisk was also great in his brief appearance, and feels much more like "The Kingpin" I had wanted to see in the first season.

I guess that overall I greatly enjoyed the character work. The action was mostly decent too, although not as ambitious, I feel, as the first season. Nothing as wow-inducing as the seemingly uncut hallway fight, although the biker fight was pretty good. This leads into my main dislike of the season, which was "Lol Ninja."

The first season, and the first half of the second season, had Daredevil going up against street thugs and the occasional competent hand to hand fighter. I felt that was a pretty good balance. Then halfway through this season, the "Lol Ninjas" show up, and it feels like half the show takes this bizarre genre bend. Like, you still have the street thugs and police, the "normies", who the Lol Ninjas are apparently able to beat just as handily as Daredevil or the other good fighters can. But then the Lol Ninjas go up against Daredevil, and in greater numbers than the street thugs ever came at him with (seriously, some of the later fights look enormous), and he's able to handle them just as well as if they were street thugs. That's a weird discrepancy, and I get why, part of the Modern Ninja Superhero whatever genre is that lots of ninjas means that they're all weak for the hero to slaughter. But that doesn't fit with the hard knocks aesthetic that the show had been running on prior to the ninja's introduction. It's not the worst genre bending I've ever seen, it didn't really even break me out of immersion (at least not fully) while watching the show, but it just sticks out like a sore thumb when you look back at it.

Also a weird nitpick was the scene where Matt was supposed to question Castle as a witness in court. Castle is uncooperative, Matt gets the permission to treat the witness as hostile, then... delivers a closing argument? Like, treating a witness as hostile doesn't mean you get to talk to the jury directly. I asked my dad, a former lawyer, to explain it to me, just in case I missed something, and he says that when questioning a witness, the side that called up a witness can't ask leading questions. Their job is to let the witness tell their testimony. The opposition, when it's their turn to ask questions, may ask leading questions because they're trying to poke holes in the witness' story. When a witness is uncooperative to their own side, that side is able to request that the witness be treated as hostile, and if granted, means that they are then allowed to ask leading questions to force the story out of the witness. But that's still questioning the witness! Matt just turns around and addresses the jury, without asking Castle a single damn thing. In general, you're only allowed to speak to the jury directly during the opening and closing statements. What Matt did was a major breach of court etiquette, which noone called out. That wouldn't be so weird, since of course TV is going to take some allowances for drama, but the rest of the show, including the previous season, did a fair job at following court procedure. So the sudden deviation from it is pretty weird.

And 4th, the "suddenly winter" thing was weird for me too. I'm next to certain that the unspoken rule of the MCU is that it all happens in real time. Agents of Shield airs over the course of the year, and the movies happen approximately when they're released. This series released in Spring, but might've but set in summer, due to one of the first lines of the show being about how hot it is. The rest of the show proceeds seemingly over the course of a couple weeks, then we have snow on the ground as Elektra is being buried? Like, I've lived my whole life in a far hotter state than New York, and I don't think I've ever experienced a December heat wave in the 100's F that went down to the 20's in a couple weeks. That's extreme. The only thing I can figure is that they finished filming in winter (or had to do reshoots, or something), and for whatever reason they couldn't film the cemetery without snow, so they tried to cover their ass with an invisible time skip? It makes no sense within the confines of the show.

Anyways, wrapping up: I think that it was a really solid and enjoyable season. The characters were probably the best of any Marvel production so far.

I feel like there was one more nitpick though, which now I can't recall... I'll edit it in if I remember it.

Oh, and also 4th, maybe make this the "MCU Movie & Netflix" thread. Neither comes out often enough to get in the others' way, and it'd help keep the threads compartmentalized. We don't really need a thread for every kind of Marvel topic: one for the weekly show and another for the things that only release two or three times a year oughtta be good.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Netflix MCU shows - Daredevil, Jesica Jones etc.

Post by Daemian Lucifer » Sun Mar 20, 2016 10:38 pm

4th Dimension wrote: Frank, Frank, Frank overkill much? You could have done that in like half the shots.
Well he is the punisher,not the conservator.
4th Dimension wrote: Murdoch I have to say he is kicking the shits out of you and melee is supposed to be your area of expertise.
Murdoch is basically a boxer.This means not only that he can knock out people,but he can take quite a punishment pummeling.As was evident by season 1.So this one is on par with that.And if wasnt for the gun,dd wouldve come on top.

Love the casting,this guy is pretty menacing looking.
4th Dimension wrote: You are also adding the [spoilers]subplot about loosing the powers?[/spoiler] Really? I hope you know what you are doing writers.
Well you arent just shrugging away a bullet to the head from point blank range,even if he was armored.That still means a certain concussion,and those are a serious thing.Having just hearing loss from time to time is not that bad as it couldve been.Though for someone who is blind...yeaah,that sucks.
4th Dimension wrote: You did not just mention child porn to the Frankie? Now you and anyone involved even superficiality in it are going to die messily.
Yup.I recoiled when I heard the idiot say that.He deserved what he got afterwards.
4th Dimension wrote:Yeah, you are not Batman to be able to have dozens of expensive suits of armor.
Well he is getting it for free,so maybe a spare or two would be advisable.
4th Dimension wrote: Nice friendly rooftop chat.
Ive enjoyed it.Liked the resolution to it as well.Also,this is one huge thing that the punisher movies lacked.
4th Dimension wrote: What? Explosive tires?
He rigged them.Had plenty of time to set the stage just right.
4th Dimension wrote: Really nice stairway scene.
A nice escalation on the hallway scene from season 1.

HOWEVER,for someone who doesnt kill,that guy he threw onto the stairs one level down,he is either dead or permanently paralyzed.Theres no way he did not shatter his spine when he fell.Way to go dd!

Overall,much better than batman v superman.
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Supahewok

Re: Netflix MCU shows - Daredevil, Jesica Jones etc.

Post by Supahewok » Sun Mar 20, 2016 11:02 pm

I remember what I wanted to say now!

I thought there was an interesting parallel between this season and Civil War, and I'm not sure how much of it is coincidental or not. The trial was to set precedent for Superhero Vigilantes, which ties in real close with Superhero Registration, which is going to show up in some form in the Civil War movie. Basically, both this season and the movie are asking the question, "What is a superhero's place in society?"

Points against this being intentional are that the Avengers are not mentioned, at all, either in the court or when Matt is arguing with Foggy. Nobody brings up Captain America as a figure to emulate, or what happened to Slovokia as an example of what unchecked vigilantism could cause.

Maybe the Netflix division didn't want to step on the movie's toes, but with such closely aligned themes it doesn't really feel like a connected universe if the connection isn't pointed out.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Netflix MCU shows - Daredevil, Jesica Jones etc.

Post by Daemian Lucifer » Sun Mar 20, 2016 11:46 pm

4th Dimension wrote: What are they doing with Punisher's origin!? He came back to life after a mortal injury and Men in Black (which one org. out of dozen?) were there to oversee it? I allways thought he is supposed to be badass normal.
Normals can still come back from a serious injury like that.And him being shot with his family,but miraculously surviving is his origin,nothing off about that.As for the men in black,its probably the army.

One thing Im always amazed by,no matter how many times I see it,is that this show is beautifully shot.Its a real cinematic masterpiece.
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4th Dimension

Re: Netflix MCU shows - Daredevil, Jesica Jones etc.

Post by 4th Dimension » Mon Mar 21, 2016 1:22 am

@Supaevok
DD and Elektra: While I did not completely notice it when I was watching it, you are completely right. I kept thinking what are you doing... leave that for tomorrow you have better time sensitive things to do. Hand will not win tomorrow. It's also a masterstroke by the Stick. He wanted DD involved. But had he come to him Mat would have blown him off because he doesn't care for his fight. But if Elektra comes to him he will have no choice but to follow her. Though to be fair to Mat, there was one reason he had to follow Elektra. It wasn't a great reason but... He had to go along with her in order to prevent her excesses and get her out of his city with as few dead people as possible. Also notice how he is not complaining about all the dead Hand ninjas she was leaving in her wake in the end fight. Where is your high horse then DD.

Karen: I liked also when she allmost slipped during one of the early episodes when she is talking to Mat and says something along the lines, I think, "Anyone of us could have killed someone..." or something like that. And then had to find a way to extract foot from her mouth.
Also weather it was for the reasons I think of I liked the part with her writing block. It's a situation in which I have found myself recently. I did some research for quite a while, but at the end of the year it came the time to try publishing it. And I had devil of a time putting it together. It was MUCh more difficult properly expressing your findings than it was doing the research. Writing is hard you guys and not everyone can do it.

Foggy:I Foggy I liked also that he grew over idolizing Mat as better lawyer and came into his own. He is going to be the lawyer, and Mat is going to be homeless person DD. And yes with all the action and the group allmost constantly split up there really was not much chance for him to be the hearth of the group. So he had to offload his pearls of wisdom on others. Like during opening statement or in the hospital.

Yeah. When I look back the Hand subplot was the weakest of the lot in my opinion. When I was watching I did not know where it was going I was fine. But I allways wanted more Fisk, more Punisher more not Elektra/DD.
Also to be fair to DD after the end of the Punisher line he really is no longer fighting normal thugs but either Hand ninjas or Hand associated Thugs. And while doing so Mat learns some neat tricks and gets his characteristic sticks on a string. And before that more than couple of ninjas presented him with loads of problems.

"Closing statement":
I know nothing about the American judical system apart from what I "learned" consuming entertainment and I was confused as to what excatly was he doing giving a closing statement during questioning. To be fair to Mat I got part of his reasoning. He suspected strongly that Castle was compromised and would not act in his best interest so he was trying to avoid letting him speak. Allthough how he was going to avoid letting prosecution question him is beyond me.

And while we are on Court/Castle section, why did Castle explode on the DA in hospital when he was asked to give that statement of his. I understand if he wanted a trial thinking his family's fate might come out that way, but why blow up on the DA. Up to this point the only thing they knew about her was that she was trying to bury him quickly and for motive she had her political career. At that moment I don't think they suspected she was directly involved in his family's death.

Timeline and temporal problems
I don't think that's it. If I remmeber correctly Netflix part of MCU is not even in sync with the rest of the MCU. Netflix series runs like couple of months to a year after the Battle of New York (thus the reconstruction being the theme for the first season) while the mainline MCU (Movies + AoS) is maybe more than a year in front of it. I'm unsure even if fall of SHIELD happened yet in Netflix series. And they are doing it that way purposefully to separate themselves from the mainline MCU and not be tied down with the parts of the continuity that they don't want, but can pick and choose what they want. Like if they need a biker gang they can pick one of the already available. Like the Dogs who allready appeared in AoS during that Lolerai (Asgardian mind controller?) episode. The only place the timeskip might have happened is between Castle declaring he was not guilty and the start of his trial. There should have been a week or so between his capture and trial because that was fastest Ryes was able to arrange things.
I'm willing to chalk it up to them having to shoot some scenes during winter and trying to explain the snow on the ground. But I think it would have been better not to even draw attention to it by having the Jurnalist guy say it's Chrismass and simply leave it hanging.

Also it's Sokovia not Slokvia. It's not meant to be similar to Slovenia or Slovakia, but made from the Slavic word for Falcon, Soko. Thus Sokovia is Falcon land. Or it could also be Juice land, but I do think it's the former ;)

Thread title and such: I mostly made another thread because I needed somewhere to post my thoughts I had as I watched the episodes, which is why I was often later proven wrong, and some people have problems even with heavily vague statements I made and clearly notifying from which episode the potential spoilers are. I thought about posting in AoS thread since that is by now our MCU thread, but same problem would apply there. If everyone wants me to rename it I will, but I think that would be wrong since Netflix MCU has by far least links to the film MCU of all the shows. And AoS actively uses the new movie happenings and will probably be heavily influenced by the Civil War.
Daemian Lucifer wrote:Well he is the punisher,not the conservator.
Yes but he is also highly efficient at killing the criminals. He could have probably done it in couple of shots to the head. But I think he wanted it to be properly bombastic as only a completly riddled bar can be.
Daemian Lucifer wrote:Murdoch is basically a boxer.This means not only that he can knock out people,but he can take quite a punishment pummeling.As was evident by season 1.So this one is on par with that.And if wasnt for the gun,dd wouldve come on top.
Ehhh, maybe but it's still waaay too close.
Daemian Lucifer wrote:Love the casting,this guy is pretty menacing looking.
That he sure is. He exudes nightmare crazy mother fucker vibe. Just looking at him you know you never ever ever want to cross him because that will be the last thing you do.
Daemian Lucifer wrote:Well you arent just shrugging away a bullet to the head from point blank range,even if he was armored.That still means a certain concussion,and those are a serious thing.Having just hearing loss from time to time is not that bad as it couldve been.Though for someone who is blind...yeaah,that sucks.
You have to understand, those words were written during or just after I watched the episode. At the time I was groaning because I though they were going to introduce e lengthy subplot about him loosing his powers at inopportune times and being knocked senseless. Now looking back, just below the limit of tolerance. Couple of depowering moments for a superhero is fine, but we definitely don't want to be watching normalman.
Daemian Lucifer wrote:Overall,much better than batman v superman.
That is not much of a commendation.
Supahewok wrote:I remember what I wanted to say now!

I thought there was an interesting parallel between this season and Civil War, and I'm not sure how much of it is coincidental or not. The trial was to set precedent for Superhero Vigilantes, which ties in real close with Superhero Registration, which is going to show up in some form in the Civil War movie. Basically, both this season and the movie are asking the question, "What is a superhero's place in society?"

Points against this being intentional are that the Avengers are not mentioned, at all, either in the court or when Matt is arguing with Foggy. Nobody brings up Captain America as a figure to emulate, or what happened to Slovokia as an example of what unchecked vigilantism could cause.

Maybe the Netflix division didn't want to step on the movie's toes, but with such closely aligned themes it doesn't really feel like a connected universe if the connection isn't pointed out.
I don't think they were doing it intentionally to tie into MCU. They might have taken some clues about what MCU in general was doing but the foundations for legality issues were laid in Jessica Jones and her upcoming trial.
As I mentioned Netflix shows are only weakly tied into the movies, and are not in sync with he general MCU in that I don't think fall of SHIELD has happened there let alone Sokovia.
Daemian Lucifer wrote:Normals can still come back from a serious injury like that.And him being shot with his family,but miraculously surviving is his origin,nothing off about that.As for the men in black,its probably the army.

One thing Im always amazed by,no matter how many times I see it,is that this show is beautifully shot.Its a real cinematic masterpiece.
At that point I did not know the truth. I thought they were messing with his beginning story. Spoilers from the episode ~11 ish. As it turns out those were DA's patsies. Sent to silence the last surviving witness.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Netflix MCU shows - Daredevil, Jesica Jones etc.

Post by Daemian Lucifer » Mon Mar 21, 2016 9:13 am

4th Dimension wrote:
Daemian Lucifer wrote:Well he is the punisher,not the conservator.
Yes but he is also highly efficient at killing the criminals. He could have probably done it in couple of shots to the head. But I think he wanted it to be properly bombastic as only a completly riddled bar can be.
Military training.Meaning going for the center of mass.And if you look at those bullet spread sketches,thats exactly what he did.Sure,a single headshot is more efficient,but its less reliable.2-5 bullets shot at the chest is practically guaranteed to kill.

Also,in which episode does the punisher become a black guy?
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4th Dimension

Re: Netflix MCU shows - Daredevil, Jesica Jones etc.

Post by 4th Dimension » Mon Mar 21, 2016 12:51 pm

He wan't going only for center mass. Most of his initial hail of gunfire hit nowhere near the gangsters.

he doesn't become black but he is pretty blue by the end.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Netflix MCU shows - Daredevil, Jesica Jones etc.

Post by Daemian Lucifer » Thu Mar 24, 2016 2:38 pm

4th Dimension wrote:Episode 7:
You tell him Foggy, tell him exactly how shitty was his behavior.
Foggy is da man.Love the guy.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Netflix MCU shows - Daredevil, Jesica Jones etc.

Post by Daemian Lucifer » Sat Mar 26, 2016 4:54 am

4th Dimension wrote:Trying to indiscriminately whack everyone in the room on the other hand is not his MO.
Thats exactly why I knew it wasnt him.Was wondering who framed him immediately.
Supahewok wrote:Also a weird nitpick was the scene where Matt was supposed to question Castle as a witness in court.
Yeah,that one was pretty weird.Especially since it follows one of the best representations of court:A witness saying that they did something wrong,and the judge immediately asking the court to be emptied before the witness can say anything else.That one was brilliant,so the matt thing that followed was pretty weak.

I did not like the hand plot,because of how unconnected it was to the punisher thing.Also punisher scenes were kind of tacked on after he killed his main nemesis.

Karen....I still think she is a selfish asshole.Not nearly as much as matt,but an asshole.First,she sees a strange old blind dude in matts apartment and all she can think about is "there was another woman in his bed"?Seriously??But then,much worse,she hides things about punisher from the cops.The very same thing she was so pissed about initially.Hypocrisy to the max.At least her end article was nice.

Nice to see good things happen to foggy.He deserves it.Frankly,I want to see a show all about foggy,since he is the best character in the show.Most badass as well.

I did not like the hand plot one bit.It was so disjointed,nonsensical and completely unrelated to everything else.The only good that came out of it is how elektras death impacted matt.

Personally,I think the first season was much better.More coherent and more interconnected.

Random movie thoughts:Punisher jail scene was great,but I still think rorschach did it better.Daredevil is more of a superman than man of steel.
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Supahewok

Re: Netflix MCU shows - Daredevil, Jesica Jones etc.

Post by Supahewok » Sat Mar 26, 2016 8:27 am

To be fair to Karen, her finding Elektra and Stick in Matt's apartment took place after a lot of bullshit excuses from Matt ever since she met him about what he did in his spare time, plus the meltdown for the team that was the trial in progress. Honestly if I were her I'd have lost patience with Matt sooner. As far as the cops and Punisher go, she initially had seen him as a misunderstood hero, like Daredevil in Season 1. So she covered the one time. After that, she'd lost her illusions but at this point digging herself deeper and deeper into a hole is pretty much half of her character. She always does it. I just saw it as being consistent with her character.

On the other hand I didn't like the ending article overly much. It felt... saccharine?

I think that the Hand plot feeling unrelated to everything else (and to some extent nonsensical) is by design. What better way to show that Matt has a dependency problem with his superhero identity than by having him value a tangential superhero problem over one of the most important events in his daytime life, both for him and his only friends? I read it as the reason why he follows the Hand plot without even really knowing why he's doing it, or even why Elektra is doing it; as he tells Foggy multiple times this season, "I need to be the man in the mask." Matt has a kind of addiction, both to the mask and to Elektra, and this season was all about his addictions ruining his life.

'Course that doesn't change the Hand from being Lol Ninjas, and for God's sake Matt could have asked for a little more detail on pretty much anything the Hand was doing at anytime. What exactly is a Black Sky? Why the hole? Why NY? What is the blood for? And so on and so on. Even if Matt playing the field blind is a part of the design to show that he isn't exercising correct judgement, we as the audience sure as hell could use some answers.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Netflix MCU shows - Daredevil, Jesica Jones etc.

Post by Daemian Lucifer » Sat Mar 26, 2016 4:10 pm

Supahewok wrote:To be fair to Karen, her finding Elektra and Stick in Matt's apartment took place after a lot of bullshit excuses from Matt ever since she met him about what he did in his spare time, plus the meltdown for the team that was the trial in progress.
I definitely agree that she shouldve blown up,I just see her reasoning as stupid.Foggy,now theres someone who got angry at matt for the right reasons,which is why I love him as a character.
Supahewok wrote:I just saw it as being consistent with her character.
Consistent,yes.Likable,not so much.
Supahewok wrote:What better way to show that Matt has a dependency problem with his superhero identity than by having him value a tangential superhero problem over one of the most important events in his daytime life, both for him and his only friends?
I dont mind that part.In fact I like that.What I do mind is:
Stick suddenly decides to kill elektra.Because of reasons.
Punisher suddenly appears to shoot at three random ninjas.Because of reasons.
Ninjas can suddenly mask their heartbeats,but not their breath*.Because of reasons.
Elektra is suddenly super important.Because of reasons.
Nobu is suddenly immortal.Because of reasons.
A deeeeeeep hole is there.Because of reasons.
Etc.

*This is the worst one actually.Because the whole heartbeat thing was introduced so these ninjas could seem like a threat to him(which already is stupid),but it works for just half of an episode,because he suddenly finds out he can hear their breathing.And he didnt find this out on his own because....of reasons,of course.Yes,their breathing was masked by them punching him,but stick whispering from the other side of the building was not.Thats idiotic.
Steve C

Re: Netflix MCU shows - Daredevil, Jesica Jones etc.

Post by Steve C » Sun Mar 27, 2016 1:39 pm

Finally finished the second season of Daredevil. First thing I want to say is that I collected Punisher comics back in the 80s-90s. It was the only comic I collected. I have the crossovers with Daredevil too.

As for The Punisher origin story there are a few slightly different versions. Frank Castle getting shot in the head while at the park is a cannon origin, and my preferred one. That's why his iconic symbol in many versions has a hole in it. BTW The idea is that the bullet took out the part of the brain that processes mercy, and basically his humanity. He is 'a badass normal.' He is also screwed up in the head. A part of him is literally missing. I'm very happy with what they did in the show.

The Punisher movies have all been marginal. They don't work as movies. They've never quite got Frank Castle either. They've come close but they've always been off by diluting both. Now THIS... THIS nailed who The Punisher is. I'm very happy with how they portrayed him. All the violence is like a mundane job to him. Like mowing the lawn. Or punching in 9-5 at the abattoir to butcher animals. That's never been portrayed before. They soooo got it here. Brown bag lunch and a thermos of coffee while shooting 20 guys in the face; that's The Punisher.

So many times I saw elements they set up and knew how it was going to end, and loved the show for following through with what I expected. Like where Frank is in the park wistfully looking at the carrousel. The audience that doesn't know The Punisher well is thinking, "He's been caught flat footed." I'm thinking, "He's baiting them out. He plans to be caught."

The little things where another director would (and have in the past) altered to make the character more palatable to the audience, or for character growth, etc were all correct. Kudos to Netflix. I believe that they finally got it right because Netflix. Netflix is hands-off while Hollywood wants to meddle. They always try and add a bit of an ethical struggle. He doesn't struggle with what he does and they got that right. Other people telling him killing bad guys is wrong is akin to a vegan saying it's wrong to eat meat. He dismisses it out of hand and just gets irritated.

Episode 3 was fucking amazing. I loved it. High point of the season for me. The rooftop conversation was great. The stairwell fight scene was amazing. The long fight scene in season one was impressive. This one was amazing. The camerawork was impossibly good. There is no room for a cameraman in that scene. Yet he never gets knocked, bumped, jarred and got amazing shot after amazing shot. Both the cameraman and choreographer deserve some kind of award. Watch it again and follow the camera would have to be instead of the action. I want to see a behind the scenes of how that was made.

Elektra. I was surprised that they didn't introduce Elektra in the first season. I guess they needed more time for casting because they took their time and nailed the casting. Élodie Yung is a great Elektra. In fact all the casting is terrific. She could have used more agency (but that's on the writers and only a minor gripe.) Yung nailed it. Supahewok summed it up perfectly. I wouldn't have thought to describe it as "subtly abusive relationship played straight." That's exactly what it is though. I'm going to disagree with you guys about Karen. I like her, along with her flaws. You find her unlikeable? I don't see any reason not to like her.
Daemian Lucifer wrote:I dont mind that part.In fact I like that.What I do mind is:
Stick suddenly decides to kill elektra.Because of reasons.
Punisher suddenly appears to shoot at three random ninjas.Because of reasons.
Ninjas can suddenly mask their heartbeats,but not their breath*.Because of reasons.
Elektra is suddenly super important.Because of reasons.
Nobu is suddenly immortal.Because of reasons.
A deeeeeeep hole is there.Because of reasons.
Etc.
And that sums up why last season was arguably better than this season. I really liked this season, yet the plot and conflict (Lol Ninjas indeed) didn't work for me. The cinematography, the action, the individual scenes, and especially the characters all worked for me. Better than season 1. Loved it. The plot and conflicts didn't work. Every scene was great! How scenes connected to create the story arc... not so much. Lol Ninjas were a key problem. They could have accomplished the same action scenes with more uzi wielding Japanese mooks and it would have been far less schlocky. The ninjas on the final roof scene definitely should have had guns in addition to everything else.

I agree the final Punisher scene in particular felt tacked on. He should not have been there. If Punisher is there, how it should have gone down is Daredevil hearing Frank say under his breath, "Listen up Red- One batch, two batch, penny and dime." Giving Daredevil the exact amount of time he has to get himself and Elektra safe as Frank opens up his new minigun onto the ninjas on the roof. Killing _all_ the Lol Ninjas and preventing their uzi armed ambush. "Pfft. Ninjas. What's this city coming to."

Then the police swing spotlights onto Frank and prevent him from taking any other shots (and creating a great looking iconic image) so he exits. Naboo isn't hit by bullets because he uses his spiked chain to hang over the edge of the building. THEN the Lol Ninjas that were inside break down the door and chase the two heroes out onto the roof for the big fight scene that was filmed.

I get the impression that my ending may have been intended and it got cut for budget reasons or something. 1)The minigun had center stage like a Chekhov gun. 2)The police had searchlights they never turned on. 3)There were far too many ninjas to include in a fight scene, 4)then there were far less ninjas than we saw a few mins earlier. I believe that's why the ending felt so tacked on- a scene got cut and/or scaled back.

Tl'dr: High marks on characterization, action and cinematography. Low marks on plot and story arcs. Overall a B-. Worth watching again.
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4th Dimension

Re: Netflix MCU shows - Daredevil, Jesica Jones etc.

Post by 4th Dimension » Sun Mar 27, 2016 8:08 pm

Like Demian says my problem with Karen's reaction is the way she reacts. She certanly had reasons to react to Mat's continued attempts to treat her like a mushroom. What would have been more real was for her to make a bit of scene demanding/pleading Mat to tell her what is going on and who are these people now. And when he refuses, like he would, because "I don't want you getting involved" she dumps his ass and storms out.
This way she gets upset seemingly only because there is an obviously wounded and hurt person in his apartment.

Like Steve says I'm fine with Punisher taking on ninjas too. In fact I'm disappointing that his contribution boils down to those four guys that stood in the background for the duration of the entire fight. Thus he feels tacked on to that scene, and I wanted him to really give them a piece of his mind. In fact what I hoped this season was going to be was a sort of Daredevli/Punisher race, where Punisher goes on a true rampage ending up going against Lol Ninjas killing any of them. Meanwhile DD tries to figure out what is their plan which is not helped by Punisher whacking any he sees, possibly going for Electra too.
And I too thought he was going to show up during the rooftop scene with the minigun to obliterate most of them and like bring the fight down to managable numbers.
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Supahewok

Re: Netflix MCU shows - Daredevil, Jesica Jones etc.

Post by Supahewok » Fri Apr 29, 2016 11:59 pm

I don't really see the Punisher as being more than a supporting character, and don't know how he can have a whole season revolving around him. But hey, Marvel hasn't missed on Netflix yet, so benefit of the doubt.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Netflix MCU shows - Daredevil, Jesica Jones etc.

Post by Daemian Lucifer » Sat Apr 30, 2016 12:51 am

Supahewok wrote:I don't really see the Punisher as being more than a supporting character, and don't know how he can have a whole season revolving around him.
Well,you see,he can start by killing some thugs.Then he would go on to murder few mobsters.After that,he could attempt to annihilate some hooligans and destroy criminals.But then,for the change of pace,he would punish murderers.By shooting them.To death.
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Andrew

Re: Netflix MCU shows - Daredevil, Jesica Jones etc.

Post by Andrew » Mon Sep 26, 2016 5:47 am

Luke Cage releases this Friday.

Here's hoping it's in the vein of Daredevil good, instead of Jessica Jones awful.
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