Netflix MCU shows - Daredevil, Jesica Jones etc.

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Steve C

Re: Netflix MCU shows - Daredevil, Jesica Jones etc.

Postby Steve C » Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:04 pm

Does Legion count in this thread? It doesn't belong in the extended universe stuff like SHIELD. I know it's not Netflix. Netflix is the lessor of the criteria IMO so I'm putting it here.

Point is, I like Legion. It is certainly not for everyone. It's not a good story. In fact it is a terrible story. I still like it despite a narrative that goes nowhere both literally and figuratively. It's got interesting characters and a cool aesthetic inspired by the 1960-70s that is definitely not the 1960-70s.
gloatingswine

Re: Netflix MCU shows - Daredevil, Jesica Jones etc.

Postby gloatingswine » Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:16 pm

Okay, I finished Iron Fist.

I'm downgrading it from meh to bleh.

Don't bother.

Iron Fist is, more than anything, a confused mess of a show. Nobody in the show seems to have a clear idea what they want. Not the villains, not Danny Rand, there's maybe a sort of bit of character development hinted at for Colleen Wing early on but it doesn't go anywhere. It forgets what it's doing every few episodes and hares off in a new direction with new antagonists that have no clearer direction than the last lot.

And it's really boring. There's no tension in any of the plots, and very little energy between the leads. Because there's no clear direction in the plot there's no stakes either.

The fighting is dull too, Finn Jones does not sell the fight scenes at all, Jessica Henwick does a little better, but not by much, and the choreography is insipid. Most of the fights are shot in the dark so you can't tell how badly the actors are doing.

The way the Hand are portrayed is also completely at odds with Daredevil season 2. Not better mind, they're still messy and rubbish, but completely different in their characterisation, who they are (as in which characters belong to the Hand) and what they want. (I really wish they'd leave the Hand out of it, but they seem to be married to them, since they're the baddies in The Defenders as well)
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Thomas

Re: Netflix MCU shows - Daredevil, Jesica Jones etc.

Postby Thomas » Sat Mar 18, 2017 1:11 am

Well at least we learn Netflix isn't invincible
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Ringwraith

Re: Netflix MCU shows - Daredevil, Jesica Jones etc.

Postby Ringwraith » Sat Mar 18, 2017 1:56 am

A lot of Netflix Originals have been of questionable quality before.
You just often don't hear of them because there are so many series they have a hand in making by this point, the good ones tend to drown out any discussion.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Netflix MCU shows - Daredevil, Jesica Jones etc.

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Sat Mar 18, 2017 3:24 pm

Steve C wrote:Does Legion count in this thread?


I was wondering the same thing myself.But I ended up talking about it in the general tv shows thread.And tying to iron fist,legion definitely had better loony bin/psychiatrist scenes.I love the style of that show.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Netflix MCU shows - Daredevil, Jesica Jones etc.

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Sun Mar 19, 2017 11:51 pm

The Cinema Snob is right:if you treat iron fist as mass effect 2 and focus on the supporting characters,its much more enjoyable.Just ignore the main guy and his story,and its not that bad of a show.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Netflix MCU shows - Daredevil, Jesica Jones etc.

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Fri Mar 24, 2017 2:41 pm

gloatingswine wrote:Don't bother.


How can you say that for the show that has the meachums?All three of them are a delight.

On the negative side:
The thing I dislike most about the show(well,apart from the main character)is how they are treating this uber heroin as just another illegal drug.Despite it not being dangerous as heroin,nor actually illegal,they still go on scaremongering how "its a poison".
gloatingswine

Re: Netflix MCU shows - Daredevil, Jesica Jones etc.

Postby gloatingswine » Sat Mar 25, 2017 10:47 am

Daemian Lucifer wrote:
gloatingswine wrote:Don't bother.


How can you say that for the show that has the meachums?All three of them are a delight.

On the negative side:
The thing I dislike most about the show(well,apart from the main character)is how they are treating this uber heroin as just another illegal drug.Despite it not being dangerous as heroin,nor actually illegal,they still go on scaremongering how "its a poison".


I was not particularly delighted by the presence of the Meachums.

Ward and Joy's reversal in positions through the series didn't come out of consistent character motivations but happened because the plot demanded it, and the revelation about Harold's role in the plane crash was amazingly cliche (and the fact that he was able to manipulate Danny despite being so obviously evil shows how much of a prat Danny himself is, believing literally everything anyone tells him. Actual ten year olds are more discerning than that).
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Netflix MCU shows - Daredevil, Jesica Jones etc.

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Sat Mar 25, 2017 1:12 pm

gloatingswine wrote:Ward and Joy's reversal in positions through the series didn't come out of consistent character motivations but happened because the plot demanded it


What reversal?Joy was always about doing stuff for her (extended)family,and the company was the legacy of her father,so her family as well.She cares for ward,danny and the company,and her conflict comes from trying to balance those three things.Ward was just tolerating his father because he cares for his sister,until he finally snaps.Wheres the inconsistency?

Yes,harold was a bit cliche,but the acting was good.And while his manipulation of danny was predictable and easy,his interactions with ward are far better.
gloatingswine

Re: Netflix MCU shows - Daredevil, Jesica Jones etc.

Postby gloatingswine » Sat Mar 25, 2017 1:42 pm

Daemian Lucifer wrote:
gloatingswine wrote:Ward and Joy's reversal in positions through the series didn't come out of consistent character motivations but happened because the plot demanded it


What reversal?Joy was always about doing stuff for her (extended)family,and the company was the legacy of her father,so her family as well.She cares for ward,danny and the company,and her conflict comes from trying to balance those three things.Ward was just tolerating his father because he cares for his sister,until he finally snaps.Wheres the inconsistency?

Yes,harold was a bit cliche,but the acting was good.And while his manipulation of danny was predictable and easy,his interactions with ward are far better.


At the start of the series, Ward is openly hostile to Danny and flashbacks show he always has been because he's been a petty bully all his life, whilst Joy is friendly with him, is on his side, and is the first to accept that he is in fact Danny Rand.

At the end of the series Ward is Danny's ally and Joy is plotting to kill him, and this did not happen because of anything that felt like genuine change or development in their characters. Ward spends the series going further and further off the rails and then is suddenly helpful at the end (and not, like, accidentally helpful in the further course of the established character arc, he just gets better and now he's Danny's friend and ally). Joy sees all of the data on the Hand's integration into Rand enterprises, is the one that figures out what most of it means, and then immediately believes Harold when he tells her it's actually all Danny's doing because apparently she'd gotten into his packet of stupid pills and so it was her turn to be trivially manipulated.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Netflix MCU shows - Daredevil, Jesica Jones etc.

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Sat Mar 25, 2017 7:30 pm

She was always shown as the one who idealized her father,while ward is the one who received all the abuse from him.And no matter how friendly she is towards danny,treating him like an adopted brother,she always picked her real family over him.
gloatingswine

Re: Netflix MCU shows - Daredevil, Jesica Jones etc.

Postby gloatingswine » Sat Mar 25, 2017 9:16 pm

Yeah, but it's just another example of people believing things they have no reason to and considerable evidence against simply because the plot requires it.

In, say Jessica Jones characters frequently make terrible decisions, but there's clear foundational work in who they are that lets the audience see why they made a terrible decision and why from the inside of the character's head it seemed like a good idea for, eg. Hogarth to try and use Killgrave to solve her own problem and so sabotage holding him.

Joy Meachum is just suddenly an idiot because the plot requires her to be.
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Ringwraith

Re: Netflix MCU shows - Daredevil, Jesica Jones etc.

Postby Ringwraith » Sat Mar 25, 2017 10:57 pm

Jessicia Jones is very much a series of people completely mucking things up because of their own deep character flaws.
Only when some people learn how to deal with those flaws, or are forced to, do they proceed to stop mucking things up.
Steve C

Re: Netflix MCU shows - Daredevil, Jesica Jones etc.

Postby Steve C » Sun Mar 26, 2017 4:45 pm

Na. In Jessica Jones I don't think any of the characters learned to deal with their flaws. They just kind of got lucky in the end. They were able to see their own flaws and be scared by them. They didn't deal with them.
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Ringwraith

Re: Netflix MCU shows - Daredevil, Jesica Jones etc.

Postby Ringwraith » Sun Mar 26, 2017 8:13 pm

Well, they're hardly "resolved".
Although Jessica is forced to abandon her own guilt, at least so it's not holding her back, and just remove Kilgrave from existence by the end, which would've solved it much earlier.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Netflix MCU shows - Daredevil, Jesica Jones etc.

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Mon Mar 27, 2017 7:14 pm

Now that Ive finished all of the show,I can return back to this.

gloatingswine wrote:Yeah, but it's just another example of people believing things they have no reason to and considerable evidence against simply because the plot requires it.


No,joy had reasons to believe her father.But ultimately,he showed her he is as deceitful as ward told her.She did not change her character,her knowledge of the events was expanded.Before,she knew only that her daddy is back,and that her brother is a junkie.But in the end,she found out that her dead daddy was a prick,setting up her best fried.

As for that last scene,she does not try to kill danny,she is just listening to what that guy has to say.What she plans to do with the information is unclear.She could very well be playing him.

One thing Im really sad about is that the show couldve done something much better if bakuto was actually the good guy,with the monks being bad.Sadly,I knew that would never have happened.
gloatingswine

Re: Netflix MCU shows - Daredevil, Jesica Jones etc.

Postby gloatingswine » Tue Mar 28, 2017 9:46 am

Daemian Lucifer wrote:No,joy had reasons to believe her father.


Not really?

She'd seen the same evidence he had, he specifically got her to do most of the analysis on it, but then he tells her Danny is the Bad Drugs Man and she believes him based on, well, nothing but his word.

And yeah, they might realise what they've been doing is dumb and backtrack on Joy plotting with Davos to kill Danny, but I'm not seeing any reason at this point to believe it's a deliberate fakeout.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Netflix MCU shows - Daredevil, Jesica Jones etc.

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Tue Mar 28, 2017 12:12 pm

gloatingswine wrote:She'd seen the same evidence he had, he specifically got her to do most of the analysis on it, but then he tells her Danny is the Bad Drugs Man and she believes him based on, well, nothing but his word.


Um,she doesnt.She tells him to give her the "secret evidence" he mentioned,and when he doesnt do it,she goes "ward was right" and storms out.When I said she had reason to trust him,I was referring to things that happened before that point,when harold turned her against ward.
gloatingswine

Re: Netflix MCU shows - Daredevil, Jesica Jones etc.

Postby gloatingswine » Wed Mar 29, 2017 1:32 pm

Daemian Lucifer wrote:
gloatingswine wrote:She'd seen the same evidence he had, he specifically got her to do most of the analysis on it, but then he tells her Danny is the Bad Drugs Man and she believes him based on, well, nothing but his word.


Um,she doesnt.She tells him to give her the "secret evidence" he mentioned,and when he doesnt do it,she goes "ward was right" and storms out.When I said she had reason to trust him,I was referring to things that happened before that point,when harold turned her against ward.


And then Operation Frame Danny goes ahead right on schedule and Harold gets to waltz right back into Rand Enterprises with no resistance from Joy.

And she's plotting to have Danny offed at the end.

None of which comes from any kind of believable character development, especially not if she's supposed to be doubting Harold now.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Netflix MCU shows - Daredevil, Jesica Jones etc.

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Wed Mar 29, 2017 3:00 pm

gloatingswine wrote:And then Operation Frame Danny goes ahead right on schedule and Harold gets to waltz right back into Rand Enterprises with no resistance from Joy.


What was she supposed to do at that moment?Slap harold?You fail to consider what she did last time someone tried framing:Walked away to return later with a trump hand(those pictures).And considering that she does not have something convenient at the ready this time,she should find one first.So yeah,her walking away at that moment is consistent with her character,and does not suggest at all that she condones the action.

gloatingswine wrote:And she's plotting to have Danny offed at the end.


No,she is listening to what someone is proposing to her.Again,we dont know what she is going to do with that information,and considering what she did in similar situations earlier,going along with it until the time is right to do something is consistent with her character.

Joy was never the one to blindly lash out against someone "because its wrong".Thats danny.Why do you expect joy to act like danny?
gloatingswine

Re: Netflix MCU shows - Daredevil, Jesica Jones etc.

Postby gloatingswine » Wed Mar 29, 2017 5:21 pm

Daemian Lucifer wrote:What was she supposed to do at that moment?Slap harold?You fail to consider what she did last time someone tried framing:Walked away to return later with a trump hand(those pictures).And considering that she does not have something convenient at the ready this time,she should find one first.So yeah,her walking away at that moment is consistent with her character,and does not suggest at all that she condones the action.


She could trivially destroy Harold.

Just drop him (and Ward who was complicit) in the fraud action Hogarth mentioned for faking his own death (since "I'm actually immortal" is not going to stand up in any court), and walk out running the company. (Which actually would have been more in character based on the thing which was supposed to establish her character and competence early in the show, closing the Pier deal early in the film where she used altruism in the course of naked self interest).

No,she is listening to what someone is proposing to her.Again,we dont know what she is going to do with that information,and considering what she did in similar situations earlier,going along with it until the time is right to do something is consistent with her character.


Whilst it's true we don't know what she's going to do with that information, there is literally no point in using a scene like that as a stinger unless it is supposed to reflect the mirrored arcs of Ward (asshole and bully who becomes Danny's friend) and Joy (Danny's friend who becomes an enemy).
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Netflix MCU shows - Daredevil, Jesica Jones etc.

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Wed Mar 29, 2017 5:35 pm

gloatingswine wrote:Just drop him (and Ward who was complicit) in the fraud action Hogarth mentioned for faking his own death (since "I'm actually immortal" is not going to stand up in any court), and walk out running the company.


Which again takes time.More than less than a day that passed before her walking out on her father and the fist team storming in.

Whilst it's true we don't know what she's going to do with that information, there is literally no point in using a scene like that as a stinger unless it is supposed to reflect the mirrored arcs of Ward (asshole and bully who becomes Danny's friend) and Joy (Danny's friend who becomes an enemy).


Of course there is.This wouldnt be the first show that used such a lame cliffhanger misdirection.
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Andrew

Re: Netflix MCU shows - Daredevil, Jesica Jones etc.

Postby Andrew » Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:52 am

It's almost Defenders time! And by almost I mean, tomorrow!

I am concerned by how hyped I am for this because it feels like a perfect opportunity for a massive let down..
gloatingswine

Re: Netflix MCU shows - Daredevil, Jesica Jones etc.

Postby gloatingswine » Sat Aug 19, 2017 3:51 pm

Defenders is okay. The hero interactions are good, the villains are not so good. (Their motivations and desires are orthogonal to the reasons the heroes want to stop them, and the reason the heroes want to stop them isn't a logical consequence of what the villains are doing, especially as disparate unrelated consequences are mentioned from them having done it before so it's really a "roll D20 on the Bad Stuff table".)

The actual performances of the villains as characters are good, there's conflict between them and they're all distinct, but their objective and the consequences of them getting it aren't strongly related and so the heroes' stakes don't feel as strongly personal as they have in the other series.
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Ringwraith

Re: Netflix MCU shows - Daredevil, Jesica Jones etc.

Postby Ringwraith » Sun Aug 20, 2017 12:56 pm

There mostly a distinct "well, know too much now so they're going to try and kill us regardless of actively opposing them or not" thing going on, that's for sure.

Danny gets constantly dunked on verbally by everyone else, it's pretty great.

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