DC Universe thread- (Holy SPOILERS Batman!)

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Steve C

DC Universe thread- (Holy SPOILERS Batman!)

Postby Steve C » Sat Mar 12, 2016 3:42 pm

We've had a Marvel thread for a while. We need a DC thread too. There's a lot of DC TV shows and movies monopolizing the general TV show thread. In this thread, spoilers are not necessary. Read at your own risk.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: DC Universe thread- (Holy SPOILERS Batman!)

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Sat Mar 12, 2016 4:22 pm

Ehh,the only show actually worth talking about is the flash,since oliver queen is an unlikable asshole,legends of tomorrow is on the edge,held there loosely simply because of the great cast,and supergirl is just bad.

Though I wouldnt mind recommending justice league war once more.Its a great cartoon,and Id like to give it exposure now that bvs is so near.Seriously,go get that thing instead of going to see that movie.Just check out the fight between superman,batman and green lantern.Way better than anything shown in the trailers for the movie.
Steve C

Re: DC Universe thread- (Holy SPOILERS Batman!)

Postby Steve C » Sat Mar 12, 2016 4:52 pm

Daemian Lucifer wrote:
Steve C wrote:That made the most sense! It was hokey but at least it made sense. Nothing else did.

Well,atom did finally use his suit to actually go into a locked place and steal a thing.That made sense.Too bad that they failed to do anything with it.

Yup. That was at least something. And they (the writers) and they (the characters) still managed to screw it up. It was an imposing steel door. Except it wasn't because when you look at the door jam from inside, the door was obviously made wrong. Plus the incredibly secure room had windows. Protected by venetian blinds which were open. Then when Savage arrives, "Get out of there!" Or maybe, "Hide under a speck of dust since that is a thing you can totally do. Then follow Savage and we'll see what he is up to." One of the minor points of "this makes no sense" in this episode. I just wanted to point out it they finally do something that makes sense, while simultaneously making no sense.

Every aspect of this episode suffers in the same way. It is a complete story collapse. The premise; "We'll investigate these murders because Savage is around and it is very likely the investigation will lead us to him," is a fair starting premise. And their plan works within the first 10 mins! So now that they've found Savage they all forget their goal was to find Savage and kill him. Their new goal is the investigation for some reason.

The whole episode is like that. Character motivations that make no sense. Heel turns about how characters act. They had the dagger from a previous episode. (Maybe I missed them losing it, but whatever.) So now they know where Savage is, they have the means to kill him and meh... Kendra can handle it on her own.

It is *the* reason the heroes are all there, except they have better things to do then their primary goal. Kendra can do it without backup. After all she's done this 480 times before and lost every time so I'm sure 481st time she's got this. Savage won't try and kill Kendra because he doesn't know she has her powers. Well except for all those times Savage DID kill her before she got her powers. And of course the time Savage showed up on Flash's show to kill her before she got her powers which spun off this entire TV show to begin with. Hey Rip, you're paranoid about not letting Kendra do anything because she's the only one who can actually accomplish the mission. What do you think? "Meh. I'm just going to try and look cool in my suit."

And against all sense, it works! Except that Savage exits stage left through a window. I guess that's that. It's not like anyone there could have possibly followed him. Not even the girl with wings because he exited stage left.

The cruft is far more important to the story than the story. Buying a house because ___? (Fast sale too! What was that, an hour from seeing the place to moving in?) Moving into the house with their stuff because ___? (Well someone's stuff since they didn't have any of their own stuff.) Unpacking said stuff because ___? Going to the house party because ___? Being safe at the house party because ___? (It's not like Savage has parties where his incredibly long lived cult followers do evil things to "vessels".) Jefferson goes on a date because ___? Jefferson's bio signature disappears because he gets clocked in the head because ___?

I could keep going forever about this episode. Every single scene is like that! Legends of Tomorrow I gave you so many chances. Spectacular failure!

Ehh,the only show actually worth talking about is the flash

Well that's the only show worth watching. There's plenty to talk about in the other shows. I could go on for another page talking about Legends. There's also more DC stuff coming down the pipe that might be worth watching like Batman V Superman. Even if it isn't worth watching there will definitely be more stuff worth talking about.

BTW I have seen Justice League War. It is good and worth watching. Batman: Assault on Arkham is another really good DC movie. DC makes some good animated movies. Too bad their live action stuff is spotty.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: DC Universe thread- (Holy SPOILERS Batman!)

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Sat Mar 12, 2016 5:19 pm

Steve C wrote:DC makes some good animated movies.


Most definitely.In fact,instead of watching legends of tomorrow,I suggest (re)watching the old justice league cartoons.WAAAAY better hawk girl.And waaaay better hawk girl romance as well.With actual character drama weaved around her.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: DC Universe thread- (Holy SPOILERS Batman!)

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Mon Mar 14, 2016 9:52 am

Daemian Lucifer wrote:the only show actually worth talking about is the flash


I need to correct myself.Totally forgot that lucifer is also a dc character.Though he was created by Gaiman,so it feels like its own thing,completely separate from everything else.Its definitely a good show.
Vulture

Re: DC Universe thread- (Holy SPOILERS Batman!)

Postby Vulture » Mon Mar 14, 2016 3:09 pm

My exposure to the flash is limited, but as someone who neither knows nor cares about the comics, it feels massively derivative. Having put up with Arrow for a season or two to humour my wife, the Flash scooby gang feels like a reskin of the Arrow scooby gang. The episode currently on our playback cycle at work (I do TV stuff for a living) is one with Mark Hamil playing the Joker - oh wait, no. He's the joker in Batman. He's the trickster (or some such) in Flash. I'm not seeing a whole lot of difference to be honest.

I'm probably not getting a very fair or balanced impression of the show due to my odd exposure to it, but it looks to me like a cut and paste from various other DC strands.

OTOH I'm enjoying supergirl. Not massively original either to be honest, but enough of a different angle on superman to be enjoyable for me. Plus she actually feels like a hero (and not overly serious) in the style of older Batman and Superman stories, rather than the dull grimdark stuff of the newer versions of those guys. I'll be giving Superman vs Batman a wide berth.
Last edited by Vulture on Tue Mar 15, 2016 1:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Steve C

Re: DC Universe thread- (Holy SPOILERS Batman!)

Postby Steve C » Tue Mar 15, 2016 5:46 am

Mark Hamil was the Trickster first. That's what got him the role as The Joker. They lampshaded that too in the episode. It's an original & iteration of it, rather than the reverse (which would make it a rip off.) Similarly Flash is an iteration on Arrow. There's not much difference between them.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: DC Universe thread- (Holy SPOILERS Batman!)

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Tue Mar 15, 2016 3:03 pm

Steve C wrote:There's not much difference between them.


Except that barry is not a douche.Which is the most important difference.
Steve C

Re: DC Universe thread- (Holy SPOILERS Batman!)

Postby Steve C » Thu Mar 31, 2016 9:28 am

Barry is an idiot though. He makes seriously bad decisions.

Daemian Lucifer wrote:Anyway,the wraith kind of looks like barry with the mask fused to its decaying flesh.

I was thinking it looked more like the Reverse Flash. He was half disintegrated when he was sucked into the portal, along with a shot, (not 100% confirmed dead) Eddie.
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4th Dimension

Re: DC Universe thread- (Holy SPOILERS Batman!)

Postby 4th Dimension » Fri Apr 01, 2016 5:56 am

Steve C wrote:Barry is an idiot though. He makes seriously bad decisions.

That is why I call him Bad Ideas Barry
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: DC Universe thread- (Holy SPOILERS Batman!)

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Fri Apr 08, 2016 3:48 pm

Phew!I managed to delete the post before any of you commented.Now I can repost it in the proper thread.

That map!
Image

Now Im glad that I havent dropped idiots* of tomorrow.

EDIT:Kaylee!!!
Image

EDIT 2:Wait,what?!That ending is...what?!I dont believe it!This show has actually done something surprising and smart and genuinely dark this time around!How did that happen?Now Im even gladder.

*I mean seriously,putting the contacts IN FRONT OF THE GUARD.Thats not just dumb in universe,thats downright insulting to the viewers.
Steve C

Re: DC Universe thread- (Holy SPOILERS Batman!)

Postby Steve C » Fri Apr 08, 2016 7:24 pm

You bastard. I had already given up on it. Now I have to reconsider.
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4th Dimension

Re: DC Universe thread- (Holy SPOILERS Batman!)

Postby 4th Dimension » Fri Apr 08, 2016 7:34 pm

Okay, what stupidity did they do now. I stopped watching, but I have to know. So please tell.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: DC Universe thread- (Holy SPOILERS Batman!)

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Fri Apr 08, 2016 10:02 pm

4th Dimension wrote:Okay, what stupidity did they do now. I stopped watching, but I have to know. So please tell.


You want the stupid part,not the smart part?Ok then.Not much of a spoiler since its early on:

They want to infiltrate a place that has retinal scanning.And they do it by rip putting a contact lens in his eye*.And he does it 5 meters in front of the security guard that does the scanning,BECAUSE ITS THE FUTURE.

*Just one eye,despite having two lenses,BECAUSE ITS THE FUTURE.And the scanner also reads just one eye,BECAUSE ITS THE FUTURE.And they dont use the other lens to get one more person in,BECAUSE ITS THE FUTURE.
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4th Dimension

Re: DC Universe thread- (Holy SPOILERS Batman!)

Postby 4th Dimension » Fri Apr 08, 2016 10:27 pm

So standard MO of the LEGENDS? Making things pointlessly difficult for themselves.

Reading a summary, I guess the smart thing for the show but dumb for the cast was:

The fact that their pointless stupid moment of mercy backfires. Because surprise, holding somebody at the gunpoint and then releasing him does not miraculously make him align his world view with your own. Also didn't they come to this year with the purpose to stop this guy. And only when they had him they realized that they might not be able to kill a kid. SO WHY GO AFTER HIM WHEN HE WAS A KID?!?
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: DC Universe thread- (Holy SPOILERS Batman!)

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Fri Apr 08, 2016 11:26 pm

4th Dimension wrote:So standard MO of the LEGENDS? Making things pointlessly difficult for themselves.


Its not that,its worse this time.Basically I see the reasoning was "We need to show the audience that he is wearing contacts.But we cannot have him put them in while on the ship,because they might forget that he did it.So lets make him do it a second before getting the eye scanned.".Which is pretty damn insulting.

4th Dimension wrote:The fact that their pointless stupid moment of mercy backfires.


And how.It actually speeds up the end times.But the thing is,all the way up to it,you expect that theyll stick to the wuv and mewcy cliche.They even have meaningful glances and all of that.And then noooup!Its brilliant.If by brilliant you can describe setting the bar so low that even the slightest shred of intelligence surprises you.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: DC Universe thread- (Holy SPOILERS Batman!)

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Wed Apr 13, 2016 10:05 pm

You know,when theres no savage in the episode,legends of bumbling is a decent,if silly,show.And hey,they finally introduced the erasing you from history thing,though in the very end.Also they upped the gore(we get to see atom piercing a guy like a bullet,which was quite fun).Another bonus:You can watch this one without watching any of the previous ones.Because its just "lets go play cowboys for no reason whatsoever".There they meet jonah hex,whom you should recognize as that weirdly disfigured guy from jlu episode once and future thing.

So yeah,go to imdb,look at every episode that doesnt have savage in it,and watch just those.Those are fun.
Steve C

Re: DC Universe thread- (Holy SPOILERS Batman!)

Postby Steve C » Wed Apr 20, 2016 8:50 am

Bad idea Barry strikes again. Stop thinking Barry. It's not your strong suit. Poor reaction time too. Zoom is very slowly going to break free. Better stand there and watch Barry. Don't punch him or anything.

Additionally I do not believe Zoom's explanation of events. It doesn't follow. There was no reason for any of it. Especially not trapping himself on Earth 2 when Zoom still wanted Flash's speed. So either he was lying or there's a whole set of plot holes and logical inconsistencies. I'm going to give the benefit of the doubt that it was good writing rather than bad... for now. I don't have a lot of faith given there's plot holes aplenty. (Zoom murdered himself because it would look cool? Don't think so.)

For example there was a plot hole in this episode. Zoom was stuck on Earth 1. He imprisoned Wally with the man in the mask. There was no way for those two to be together. Zoom can feel breaches now too? Plot fiat strikes again. Those aren't particularly important to the story as a whole. If Zoom was telling the truth then the entire season will suffer complete story collapse for me. Nested plot holes.
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4th Dimension

Re: DC Universe thread- (Holy SPOILERS Batman!)

Postby 4th Dimension » Wed Apr 20, 2016 3:08 pm

Yeah he is crediting himself all too much. Also yes Bad ideas Barry is in full effect. Let's put all the people I care about in this shielded cage, and then forget about cop lady and Wally.

Barry Barry Barry. When will you learn. Talking is NOT a free action.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: DC Universe thread- (Holy SPOILERS Batman!)

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Wed Apr 20, 2016 3:49 pm

Steve C wrote:Zoom was stuck on Earth 1. He imprisoned Wally with the man in the mask. There was no way for those two to be together.


That was weird to me as well.Also it was completely pointless.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: DC Universe thread- (Holy SPOILERS Batman!)

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Wed Apr 20, 2016 6:14 pm

Another thing bugged me,but I just couldnt put it into words until now:
The jay that got killed was not a speedster.That means that zoom took him from his past.But last time barry did something so major with his past,it screwed things up royally.And lets not forget that eddie killing himself erased thawne.So how did zoom take his younger self from the past,killed him,and remained alive?

On the other hand:

Steve C wrote:
Daemian Lucifer wrote:Anyway,the wraith kind of looks like barry with the mask fused to its decaying flesh.

I was thinking it looked more like the Reverse Flash. He was half disintegrated when he was sucked into the portal, along with a shot, (not 100% confirmed dead) Eddie.


are time wraiths actually what happens when you get paradoxed out of existence?And if so,will zooms time wraith be his demise?That...would actually be a pretty well done foreshadowing.
Steve C

Re: DC Universe thread- (Holy SPOILERS Batman!)

Postby Steve C » Thu Apr 21, 2016 2:42 am

Zoom claimed he killed his time remnant. Which would be the leftover present version after Zoom traveled back in time and altered the timeline. Like killing the version of Thawne that didn't know who Barry was yet. It wouldn't really matter because it is already a paradox with a closed loop.

The jay that got killed was not a speedster.That means that zoom took him from his past.

The Jay that got an arm through the chest and pulled into Earth 2 (I'm not willing to say he was 'killed' yet) WAS a speedster (past tense). That Jay had speed, used V-9, lost it, went to Earth 1, used V-9 again, regained it temporarily, lost it again, then loitered around Star Labs until being chest-armed. He wasn't a speedster at that moment but had been in the past. (Assuming Zoom was not telling the truth. If he was telling the truth, then that Jay was faking that he had no powers and was a speedster at that moment.) In any case, not a past self.

BTW Zoom's voice keeps throwing me for a loop because every time I see or hear him I can only picture Tony Todd. I guess it can't be him in the suit running around though since he is 62 years old now.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: DC Universe thread- (Holy SPOILERS Batman!)

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Thu Apr 21, 2016 5:26 am

Steve C wrote:The Jay that got an arm through the chest and pulled into Earth 2 (I'm not willing to say he was 'killed' yet) WAS a speedster (past tense). That Jay had speed, used V-9, lost it, went to Earth 1, used V-9 again, regained it temporarily, lost it again, then loitered around Star Labs until being chest-armed. He wasn't a speedster at that moment but had been in the past. (Assuming Zoom was not telling the truth. If he was telling the truth, then that Jay was faking that he had no powers and was a speedster at that moment.) In any case, not a past self.


But why should we assume that jay wasnt lying about losing his speed?I mean zoom used v9,but he didnt suddenly lose his speed.And the effects of it on him were far more longer than the temporary ones we saw with other speedsters.Or did zoom take the speed from jay and that kind of stabilized both of them?
Steve C

Re: DC Universe thread- (Holy SPOILERS Batman!)

Postby Steve C » Thu Apr 21, 2016 9:16 am

/shrug.

I'm going to keep to my original theory. Zoom is an evil serial killer. Jay is good and not a serial killer. That there are some alternate universe shenanigans going on. V-9 causes a personality split like we saw in that girl who took it. There is a fair amount of lying and time travel going at the same time. Purposeful muddying of the water by the writers who are trying to do the foreshadowing and misdirects that SHIELD is doing, but unlike SHIELD they suck at it.

Reason I say this is because a lot of elements break down in every other scenario. For example Jay was and is a scientist. Zoleman was a crazy murderer his whole life. I find it hard to believe that Zoleman is that educated and smart. I'm going to assume that Jay was not lying about losing his speed because Jay is a good guy. Things fall apart too hard if he is a speedster and is a bad guy. Like why didn't Cisco get vibes off the helmet earlier? He only started getting vibes of Zoom standing around in his prisoner room after Jay got arm-sucked into Earth 2. The helmet was right next to him since the end of season 1. Caitlin said to Jay the speed force is missing from his cells. That and a lot of other techno-babble that starts just being wrong. There's way too much stuff that becomes nested plot holes like that.

When Zoom "killed" Jay and pulled him through the breach he says, "Well, this is a complication." So we know he didn't mean to do that. It also makes it pretty clear he was lying about "convincing" Jay to agree to be murdered as a time remnant. As far as I can tell there's 4 characters being played by the same actor. There is Zoom. There is the idiot in the iron mask.* There was Jay that loitered around Star Labs (whereabouts unknown). There was the guy sitting in the park who Jay called Hunter Zoleman.

I'm willing to go along with (not advocate though) the reverse of what I said before. Instead of the V-9 splitting Zoom off from Jay, (creating an evil version) maybe the V-9 split Jay off from Zoom (creating a good version).

No matter which way I look at it though there's going to be one or more plot holes. (Unless there's an Earth 3 which would be a =lame= explanation.) Jay was the one who identified Hunter Zoleman in the park. Jay would have recognized the famous name from his Earth. There's lots of stuff like that no matter what is true. I really hope that everything will be untangled soon. I just don't have a lot of faith in the writers for it to make sense when it is all done. They've seeded a lot of elements though:

* Earth 1+2 + Supergirl Earth + others
* Evil doppelgangers
* Time remnants
* Time wraiths
* V-9 Blue speed
* V-9 personality split/evilness

* I call him an idiot because all he does is spell out "Jay Garrick" for months. Dude! Play some charades. Prick a finger and start writing on the glass. Write with your poo. Do something other than knock in a code only you understand. Does the Speed Force completely remove common sense? (He's definitely =A= Jay Garrick though.)
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: DC Universe thread- (Holy SPOILERS Batman!)

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Thu Apr 21, 2016 9:53 am

The guy in the mask is not jay.I think thats his father.And you know what,I think thats why one jay is a serial killer and the other is a scientist.Evil one went back in time,kidnapped his father before he killed his mother,and so the other jay grew up to be less evil.

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