Music not from games

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Retsam

Re: Music not from games

Postby Retsam » Mon Sep 12, 2016 10:54 pm

Narratorway wrote:Take for instance his Iron Man example. He just presumes the lack of music didn't change the scene at all, when it very clearly removes almost all the tension. It's no longer Tony trying something potentially dangerous and using quips to take the edge off, it's Tony about to do some run-of-the-mill testing and being smug to himself about it for...some reason? Without the music, the scene doesn't even make sense!


I like how you reinforce your point of how stupid it is for someone to take their own opinion of a scene and try to pass it off as the one obviously correct interpretation of a scene by taking your own opinion of a scene and claiming it's "very clearly" the correct interpretation of that scene. It's really clever how you used hypocrisy to reinforce your point, here.

---

But, yeah, I really enjoyed that video, but I only partially agree with it.

I do agree that Marvel is being rather safe and boring with their scoring choices. I thought his criticisms of all three scenes (Iron Man, Cap'n America, and Thor) were on point. (No, I really didn't notice the absence of the music from that Iron Man scene, personally) And while I generally enjoy soundtracks as background music for work, the only Marvel film I've ever put on as background music is Guardians of the Galaxy's Awesome Mix Vol 1.

I don't really agree with the implication that the issue is Temp Music though. Star Wars, despite having all those memorable tunes, had temp music. (Classical music, not borrowed from other film) And, even when the temp music "bleeds" into the final version; whether you direct a scene with the music in mind, or compose the music to match the scene, I don't see any reason why you can't get just as good an outcome either way. Certainly, it can be overdone, but I don't see it as the fundamental problem here.

The MCU music is safe and predictable probably for about the same reasons why their plots have become safe and predictable. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the MCU films, they're fun films to watch, but their overall plot structure is pretty same-y. And I'm not really sure why their plot structure (and music) is getting so repetitive; but I'm guessing it's not because of temp music.


Sidenote: his opening bit, while it illustrates the point he's trying to make pretty well, could really have used some examples of people remembering music other than the main theme for big, multi-movie series: I'm sure someone could have sang the Imperial March or Duel of the Fates or the music from the Tatooine sunset scene.
Steve C

Re: Music not from games

Postby Steve C » Tue Sep 13, 2016 1:39 am

That "Marvel Symphonic Universe" video is interesting for me. I have a different take.

First I immediately thought of the Black Sabbath Iron Man theme song. I also disagreed with all of his "improved music" cuts. Including removing the narrator in that Captain America museum scene.

Let's dissect that museum scene. With the narrator in, it's clear that what the audience is hearing is what Steve Rodgers is hearing- the ambient sounds of the museum. With music piped in around the exhibits and a narrator. Without the narrator and only the music, that is NOT what Steve Rodgers is hearing. It's now just only for our benefit watching the movie. Who knows what the museum sounds like. It has completely changed what the scene is about. Narrator in= about Steve. Narrator out= about movie audience.

That scene is a good example for me because I remember how I felt the first time I watched that scene. I immediately hated the music. I hated that it was purposely trying to invoke an emotion and over power the scene. And then I did a complete 180 and liked the music when the narrator came on. It was the overblown music in the museum! I'm sure Steve Rodgers has mixed feelings about it too. A bit of pride, a bit of regret and a bit of cringe. The music is an important part of that Captain America scene. The "Every Frame a Painting" guy has it completely wrong the reason why though.

One of my pet peeves is music in movies. Way too often movies hit you over the head with the music. I've talked about it in the movie thread:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=147&p=40167&hilit=music#p40167
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=147&p=38036&hilit=music#p38036
Steve C wrote:Music is supposed to compliment what is happening on screen. It is not supposed to replace it.

What "Every Frame a Painting" guy wants music to replace what is happening on screen. The Cap America museum scene and the Thor diner are great examples. The Thor one is wrecked by his music choice. Because it's not about the scene anymore. Now the music is explaining how the character should be feeling. Instead of, you know, the movie doing that. His music choice did not match the scene at all. The scene was slightly silly and it had slightly silly music.

"Every Frame a Painting" guy is right that it much harder to hum out Marvel music scores. I'm ok with that. It's nice to have iconic theme music (SW, Indiana Jones, 007, etc) but hardly necessary. I do not think that music makes a movie iconic. It's the other way around- the movie makes the music iconic.

My go-to example of good/bad movie music is LotR vs Hobbit. LotR has beautiful, iconic, emotional impactful music that is perfectly scored. It is great music to a great movie trilogy. I could not hum on demand a single note if stopped in the street. The Hobbit has the same music and it does not work at all. Not the music, and not the movie. The music is inserted as a replacement for the emotion in scenes. The music comes across as hamfisted and trips over itself the entire music... oops, I mean entire movie. I forgot the movie was there because the music was too busy making sure it got noticed. I probably could sing out a couple of the songs from The Hobbit though. So what does that prove? -- Nothing.
Steve C

Re: Music not from games

Postby Steve C » Tue Sep 13, 2016 1:56 am

Now regarding the Temp music.

The "Every Frame a Painting" guy uses examples of Temp music from Inception in both BSG and Transformers. In BSG scene, the placeholder music worked, and the replacement music for it that BSG aired with was better. Inception had bad music. Transformers had terrible terrible music and sound design as demonstrated in those clips. One of many many reasons why it was not a good movie. Temp music may have contributed to the problems. Now this is the really important part... I don't care.

That is an example where music is taken from a bad movie, put into a good show and works. It's even improved. Take music from the same bad movie and put into a bad movie and it doesn't. My point is that "Every Frame a Painting" guy's premise is flawed. More importantly, I don't care.

I don't care how the sausage is made. I only care about what goes up on screen. I don't care if the leading actress only got the job because she gave the director a blowjob. If it's a good movie, it's a good movie. If it is bad, it is bad. Whatever early drafts, Temp music, shorthands, or scenes left on the cutting room floor, if they don't make it into the final movie I don't care. "Frodo's" name was going to be "Bingo". An early draft is an early draft. I don't think we (the audience) should care about it.

Transformers wasn't bad because it used Temp music. It was simply a bad movie with bad sound design. Find a good movie and I bet it used Temp music and bet it completely undermines "Every Frame a Painting" guy's premise that Temp music is bad. "Every Frame a Painting" guy just likes the smell of his own farts.
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Retsam

Re: Music not from games

Postby Retsam » Tue Sep 13, 2016 3:22 am

The Cap America museum scene and the Thor diner are great examples. The Thor one is wrecked by his music choice. Because it's not about the scene anymore. Now the music is explaining how the character should be feeling. Instead of, you know, the movie doing that.


This seems like an odd dichotomy: is the music not part of the movie? How is a movie conveying emotion or ideas through music any less valid than a movie conveying ideas and emotion through dialogue or the visuals? It's odd to me that, through out both of your comments, you talk like the movie and the music are in competition, instead of the latter being an aspect of the former.

---

Maybe it just comes down to that difference of philosophy mentioned at the beginning of the video; you seem to subscribe to the modern trend of "music shouldn't be noticed"; but personally I find I like the old style better.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Music not from games

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Tue Sep 13, 2016 3:39 am

Steve C wrote:First I immediately thought of the Black Sabbath Iron Man theme song.


The thing about that song is that it was made in the 70s,so its not an original score for the movie.
Ninety-Three

Re: Music not from games

Postby Ninety-Three » Tue Sep 13, 2016 3:45 am

A lot of you folks are missing his point on temp music. It's not that it's inherently bad, but rather that there's a trend of people building the final score to match the temp music, and that's bad. Or at the very least, suboptimal. I don't think anyone would suggest that telling composers "Make a piece that's almost exactly like X" is how the industry should run.
Steve C

Re: Music not from games

Postby Steve C » Tue Sep 13, 2016 6:36 am

Retsam wrote:you talk like the movie and the music are in competition, instead of the latter being an aspect of the former.


It shouldn't be. It has failed (both music/movie) when it is in competition with itself. The music is part of the movie. It should always be part of the movie. It often isn't and that's how you know the sound design has screwed up. If the scene is saying one thing, and the music is saying another then neither works because it wasn't two things. It's just 1 thing. The example diner scene in Thor is silly with silly music. It works as a whole. That guy's new choice in music does not match the scene. It now matches what he feels the character should be feeling. It sucks. His altered music is now competing for the scene and screws it up.

If the only way I can tell a scene is supposed to be thrilling and suspenseful is due to the music, then it just serves to highlight that the scene is NOT thrilling and suspenseful. (Ex Machina and the Hobbit are both full of this.) Music is not a replacement and should not be competing with the scene. It is one thing.

"Every Frame a Painting" doesn't seem to get this by his examples and his music choices. His music is now competing with the film as a separate entity. "The music wasn't emotionally impactful" enough is basically his only reason. That's a terrible reason. Some scenes are not supposed to be emotionally impactful. It should be a good match of music to the scene. If it is background music that you only half hear like in the Ironman 1 testing the suit example then fine. If it is soaring overlay like in an Indiana Jones action scene then fine. But just because there is a scene on screen and that scene contains music it does not mean that music must be noticed and you should be able to hum it on the street.

Ninety-Three wrote:A lot of you folks are missing his point on temp music. It's not that it's inherently bad, but rather that there's a trend of people building the final score to match the temp music, and that's bad. Or at the very least, suboptimal. I don't think anyone would suggest that telling composers "Make a piece that's almost exactly like X" is how the industry should run.

I don't care. Like I said, I consider it part of the sausage. If it works, it works. If it doesn't, it doesn't. "Every Frame a Painting" doesn't make a strong enough case.

The thing about that song is that it was made in the 70s,so its not an original score for the movie.
Ya. So?
Ninety-Three

Re: Music not from games

Postby Ninety-Three » Tue Sep 13, 2016 1:46 pm

Steve C wrote:I don't care. Like I said, I consider it part of the sausage.


Okay, but I'm not sure why you're commenting on a video about sausage-making then.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Music not from games

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Tue Sep 13, 2016 1:47 pm

Steve C wrote:
The thing about that song is that it was made in the 70s,so its not an original score for the movie.
Ya. So?


The video is about scores made for the movies,not for songs that they used from somewhere else verbatim.
gloatingswine

Re: Music not from games

Postby gloatingswine » Tue Sep 13, 2016 4:41 pm

Daemian Lucifer wrote:The video is about scores made for the movies,not for songs that they used from somewhere else verbatim.


Unless the film intends to use the music to draw a cultural association or represent a period or culture that is defined by or produced that music, there's no difference between what a licensed track and a specifically written one is doing in a movie.

The use of Iron Man in the film does not exist to draw any specific association to late 70 heavy metal, the culture that spawned it, or anything else. It's there because the sound fits.
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Narratorway
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Re: Music not from games

Postby Narratorway » Tue Sep 13, 2016 6:05 pm

No it doesn't. It's there because pun.

That aside, the video is specifically about scores, so whatever a soundtrack can accomplish in a movie is irrelevant.
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Wide And Nerdy

Re: Music not from games

Postby Wide And Nerdy » Tue Sep 13, 2016 7:34 pm

I don't indulge music as often as I should so I stumble across stuff I like haphazardly.

Shamus and Saints Row got me a bit interested in electronic music but its hard to find what I like. I have no idea what to search for and Pandora isn't really hitting the mark. I want electronic music that feels like it engulfs you and has fast complex rhythm. Or something that sounds like Fat Refund (by Stamper) or like the third or fourth song from Crypt of the Necrodancer (there are only two or three songs from that track that I really like). If anybody knows where to steer me, I'll keep an open mind.

Also sometimes like piano music but the only piece I can actually name that I like is Claire De Lune. I think its because Italian (is it italian?) names seem to prove hard to remember. Or they have names like "Concerto Mezzo 52 Volume 9 Subsection B" but if you have recommendations based on that, open to that too.
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Retsam

Re: Music not from games

Postby Retsam » Tue Sep 13, 2016 7:47 pm

Claire De Lune is French for "Moonlight". (As a kid, I knew it as "that piece from the end of Oceans 11")

I don't listen to a ton of piano, but Ludovico Einaudi has some good stuff, like divenire. And, hey, that actually is in Italian.
Steve C

Re: Music not from games

Postby Steve C » Tue Sep 13, 2016 11:01 pm

Ninety-Three wrote:
Steve C wrote:I don't care. Like I said, I consider it part of the sausage.
Okay, but I'm not sure why you're commenting on a video about sausage-making then.

It is not a video about sausage-making. "Sausage-making" is movie-making in this analogy. Sausage-making is not music-making.

The reason why I'm commenting on this spice-making video is how it is advocating that spice must always be tasted. How it must be foremost in flavors. How if you cannot taste it the following day then *more* should have been added. Because spice can never be subtle. If spice in anything is ever subtle then it has failed. That if something doesn't taste salty, then you should have skipped adding salt all together.

I don't care about how movies are made, but I do want them to work and be good. I'm commenting to slam the video because if "Every Frame a Painting" was taken seriously it would exacerbate a problem that already causes me to literally stop watching a movie. This guy thinks good music is more important than good movies.
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Lachlan the Sane
Location: I come from the land down under, where women blow and men chunder

Re: Music not from games

Postby Lachlan the Sane » Wed Sep 14, 2016 2:25 am

Wide And Nerdy wrote:Also sometimes like piano music but the only piece I can actually name that I like is Claire De Lune. I think its because Italian (is it italian?) names seem to prove hard to remember. Or they have names like "Concerto Mezzo 52 Volume 9 Subsection B" but if you have recommendations based on that, open to that too.

In my experience, about 90% of Pandora is piano recordings of Claire de Lune.
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Wide And Nerdy

Re: Music not from games

Postby Wide And Nerdy » Wed Sep 14, 2016 5:24 pm

Lachlan the Mad wrote:
Wide And Nerdy wrote:Also sometimes like piano music but the only piece I can actually name that I like is Claire De Lune. I think its because Italian (is it italian?) names seem to prove hard to remember. Or they have names like "Concerto Mezzo 52 Volume 9 Subsection B" but if you have recommendations based on that, open to that too.

In my experience, about 90% of Pandora is piano recordings of Claire de Lune.


I was more referring to the electronic music. I'll grant that I haven't put in a ton of time on that but I haven't been able to steer Pandora in the right direction. they have lots of electronic music but not really what I'm looking for. What I want I can only describe as "pretty" and "full" with fast complex rhythms. I suddenly wish I was more literate but if I was i probably wouldn't need to ask.
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Kelerak

Re: Music not from games

Postby Kelerak » Wed Sep 14, 2016 5:31 pm

I don't suppose Anamanaguchi would be within your ballpark?
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Wide And Nerdy

Re: Music not from games

Postby Wide And Nerdy » Wed Sep 14, 2016 5:47 pm

Kelerak wrote:I don't suppose Anamanaguchi would be within your ballpark?


It sounds promising. This isn't exactly what I had in mind. But I like video game inspired stuff. And its leading me to another good sounding song. But its thinner like a video game melody, without the layers and pulsing that I am looking for. Anamanaguchi with more layers would work.

Pandora is frustrating. I wish I could give it better hints like "I like this but more up tempo." Rather than just thumbs up or thumbs down.
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Narratorway
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Re: Music not from games

Postby Narratorway » Sat Sep 17, 2016 8:15 pm

Retsam wrote:I like how you reinforce your point of how stupid it is for someone to take their own opinion of a scene and try to pass it off as the one obviously correct interpretation of a scene by taking your own opinion of a scene and claiming it's "very clearly" the correct interpretation of that scene. It's really clever how you used hypocrisy to reinforce your point, here.


Image


Also a rebuttal.
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Supahewok

Re: Music not from games

Postby Supahewok » Sat Sep 17, 2016 9:14 pm

Narratorway wrote:
Retsam wrote:I like how you reinforce your point of how stupid it is for someone to take their own opinion of a scene and try to pass it off as the one obviously correct interpretation of a scene by taking your own opinion of a scene and claiming it's "very clearly" the correct interpretation of that scene. It's really clever how you used hypocrisy to reinforce your point, here.


Image


The thing about jokes is that they're supposed to be funny.
Steve C

Re: Music not from games

Postby Steve C » Sun Sep 18, 2016 7:34 am

Is it shit on Narratorway week or something?
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Lachlan the Sane
Location: I come from the land down under, where women blow and men chunder

Re: Music not from games

Postby Lachlan the Sane » Sun Sep 18, 2016 10:02 am

Steve C wrote:Is it shit on Narratorway week or something?

Any week can be Shit On Narratorway Week if you believe in yourself!
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Kelerak

Re: Music not from games

Postby Kelerak » Tue Oct 11, 2016 4:20 pm

So, moving away from White Stripes/anything Jack White related for a while, I think I might be getting into Smashing Pumpkins now. I'm currently listening through Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness, and am surprised by how varied the instrumentation is, in a very good way. Most of my familiarity with Smashing Pumpkins (unsurprisingly) is with Bullet With Butterfly Wings, which is very much a grunge rock song befitting of the time period, but learning that the album incorporates slower and different genres beyond just grunge rock is a pleasant surprise.

I now realize how weird it is for liking the bands I do now, because these are all the same bands that my dad liked. It must be genetics or something.
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AussieJo
Location: Somewhere in Australia.

Re: Music not from games

Postby AussieJo » Wed Oct 12, 2016 5:01 am

I'm not gonna write an extensive response, because I suck at that. But, I do like RHCP.

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