Doctor Who?

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4th Dimension

Re: Doctor Who?

Postby 4th Dimension » Mon Oct 06, 2014 11:07 am

Steve C wrote:And fourth is bit more science-y and forgivable that it was ignored. The Earth-Moon is a gravitational pair going around the Sun. If the Moon flew off then the mass of the pair going around the Sun would change and the corresponding orbit would change. Odds are it wouldn't be stable. The mass of the Moon is only 1/81th that of the Earth but even a small change to a stable system has the potential to upset it completely. Check out this video of what happens when a rogue star comes near to our solar system. Note that the star doesn't need to hit anything to completely destroy the solar system- it's not even in it before planets start flying off. If a small rogue planet the size of Mercury came near our solar system it would change the orbits of planets and some would get thrown out. I don't thinkthis program can simulate the removal of a moon but I'm sure there are similar programs out there. I'd bet money that if the Moon was removed like in this episode the orbits of the inner solar system would change. Maybe a little bit, maybe a lot. Either way it would be really bad and destroy the habitability of Earth. I remember messing with that program and throwing a rogue Pluto sized object through the solar system. It didn't come close to hitting anything and still the solar system was drastically altered. For example Earth's orbit became far more elliptical crossing Venus' and Saturn's orbits. Bye bye life.

tl'dr- Worst episode evar!

A rogue star is a lot heavier than the Moon. So it's unlikely that a planet with a mass 7% of that of the Earth (that is the necessary mass of Moon for there to be 1g of gravity at it's surface, if the Moon radius remains unchanged) would influence the inner system much. It would certainly cause changes in the Earth's orbit. The barycentric center would move to a place 20 000 km above Earth surface. I'm afraid Moon and Earth would go into highly eccentric orbits around each other due to them not having enough speed to maintain their old orbits around a much lighter body. But this has supposedly been happening for 10 years. I guess Earth's orbit around the Sun will be affected (Especially since the dragon would be tugging on the Earth when he left our orbit) but not by much.
But than again we are arguing science over something that has magically mass increasing Moon.
Steve C

Re: Doctor Who?

Postby Steve C » Mon Oct 06, 2014 1:54 pm

Steve C wrote:I remember messing with that program and throwing a rogue Pluto sized object through the solar system. It didn't come close to hitting anything and still the solar system was drastically altered.

Image
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4th Dimension

Re: Doctor Who?

Postby 4th Dimension » Mon Oct 06, 2014 4:26 pm

Yeah but that was due to high moment that planet had. Moon wouldn't be falling from out of Solar system into it.
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Lachlan the Sane
Location: I come from the land down under, where women blow and men chunder

Re: Doctor Who?

Postby Lachlan the Sane » Tue Oct 07, 2014 12:31 am

Oh, hey, I figured out YET ANOTHER set of logical flaws with this episode; the way that the "space program" worked was bloody stupid. Now, one of the many, many anvilicious morals that this episode wanted to drop on us was "Humanity needs to get off their arses and back into space". Unlike the other morals that the episode had, this one wasn't self-defeating. However, the writers went waaaaay too overboard with making the space program look shabby and cheap, creating yet more logical loopholes.

For starters; the writers do know that the Space Shuttle isn't a moon-worthy craft, right? I did catch the line where they said it was a museum piece that they'd refurbished, which presumably included strapping bigger rockets onto the back and reinforcing the frame for lunar travel... but that would probably have been a lot more expensive than just building a new rocket. Judging by the fact that the space program had every remaining nuclear bomb on the planet in their space shuttle (which would be a crapton of extra weight), so presumably they have the support of all the major nuclear powers, which means that they probably have quite a lot of money to work with.

So yeah... while I've been kind of "eh" about this series so far, this is the first episode that I'd call out-and-out bad. Nevertheless, it's bad in an interesting way. A lot of previous "bad" episodes of Doctor Who have aimed for a low target and hit; this episode aims extremely high and misses spectacularly.
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Thomas

Re: Doctor Who?

Postby Thomas » Tue Oct 07, 2014 1:04 pm

Okay so how does this one rank amongst the worst ever episodes of New Who? I think it's worse than Daleks in Manhattan, because single cellular organisms with legs is even worse than Dalek pig-men. But not quite as bad as Love and Monsters, because nothing about that episode was redeemable. L&M was basically about how the writer was ashamed to like Doctor Who and he literally kills off the Doctor Who superfans in it. At least with enough reworking this episode could have been, well, The Beast Within
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4th Dimension

Re: Doctor Who?

Postby 4th Dimension » Tue Oct 07, 2014 1:38 pm

Lachlan the Mad wrote:Oh, hey, I figured out YET ANOTHER set of logical flaws with this episode; the way that the "space program" worked was bloody stupid. Now, one of the many, many anvilicious morals that this episode wanted to drop on us was "Humanity needs to get off their arses and back into space". Unlike the other morals that the episode had, this one wasn't self-defeating. However, the writers went waaaaay too overboard with making the space program look shabby and cheap, creating yet more logical loopholes.

For starters; the writers do know that the Space Shuttle isn't a moon-worthy craft, right? I did catch the line where they said it was a museum piece that they'd refurbished, which presumably included strapping bigger rockets onto the back and reinforcing the frame for lunar travel... but that would probably have been a lot more expensive than just building a new rocket. Judging by the fact that the space program had every remaining nuclear bomb on the planet in their space shuttle (which would be a crapton of extra weight), so presumably they have the support of all the major nuclear powers, which means that they probably have quite a lot of money to work with.

So yeah... while I've been kind of "eh" about this series so far, this is the first episode that I'd call out-and-out bad. Nevertheless, it's bad in an interesting way. A lot of previous "bad" episodes of Doctor Who have aimed for a low target and hit; this episode aims extremely high and misses spectacularly.

I would chart that one under my own flaw of "How the fuck does your space program lack funding when the world ending threat is in SPACE!". Also that thing with the space shuttle, I forgave them that because it's a common mistake amongst writters. They want the craft to be something famous an forget that Space Shuttle was made to get to LEO with cargo. And not much more. Oh and if you wanted to nuke the Moon cheaper alternative would be to launch nukes on their own rockets. And those can not be our only nukes. We humans have a shitton of those.
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Thomas

Re: Doctor Who?

Postby Thomas » Tue Oct 07, 2014 1:48 pm

I found the nuke thing so hard to believe that I actually completely ignored it. There is no friggin' way that the USA decomissioned 5,000 warheads between 2014 and 2050. Never mind shutting down the space program, what's up about that multilateral disarmament? And 100 is the worst kind of number, it's large enough that every single nuclear power would have needed to completely disarm, except one country who kept a large enough portion of their stockpile to be a major threat to every other country in the world. The UK only has a total of 160 warheads atm for example.

Maybe they were the last remaining nukes in the UK? It's actually fairly likely that we'd only have 100ish by 2050 if not fewer. But in that case why was it an american spaceship? And what happened to India's space program...

This episode is so flimsy that you can't even glance at it
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Lachlan the Sane
Location: I come from the land down under, where women blow and men chunder

Re: Doctor Who?

Postby Lachlan the Sane » Wed Oct 08, 2014 5:12 am

Regarding the nuke thing -- the nukes bore the flags of various nuclear powers (I saw American, Russian, and possibly Indian flags -- which has its own problems because that implies that the space program has major international support), but I didn't find the number of nukes in the shuttle to be too unbelievable. Nukes don't have a great shelf-life; if people stopped making nuclear bombs by 2020 or so (not bloody likely but hey), then it's possible that a lot of them would have decayed.

Of course, if the writer had dropped the "every remaining nuke on earth" line in favour of "every nuke we can carry", we wouldn't even be glancing at this.

Thomas wrote:Okay so how does this one rank amongst the worst ever episodes of New Who? I think it's worse than Daleks in Manhattan, because single cellular organisms with legs is even worse than Dalek pig-men. But not quite as bad as Love and Monsters, because nothing about that episode was redeemable. L&M was basically about how the writer was ashamed to like Doctor Who and he literally kills off the Doctor Who superfans in it. At least with enough reworking this episode could have been, well, The Beast Within


I've been trying to remember every bad episode of New Who that I can, but all I can really remember off the top of my heads are episodes which were rubbish because they were dull and unambitious (Love & Monsters, Fear Her). This was rubbish in a very special way; it was rubbish like Mass Effect 3 or the James Cameron Avatar because it had a crazy ambitious and high-concept plot but with terrible writing that couldn't support the quality of the concept at all.
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4th Dimension

Re: Doctor Who?

Postby 4th Dimension » Wed Oct 08, 2014 6:19 am

This episode was so ilogically bad that I, a person that is allmost allways able to ignore plotholes, was stunned by their idiotic "Moon is gaining mass". A single line from the Doctor, when they find out it's a creature, something like "It's feeding off Sun's mass wia wormholes" would be enough. It would have been utter rubbish, but it would cover that hole. But they had to keep them coming and coming.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Doctor Who?

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Wed Oct 08, 2014 8:09 am

Thomas wrote: I think it's worse than Daleks in Manhattan, because single cellular organisms with legs is even worse than Dalek pig-men.


But what about lightning transfered genes?

Anyway pigmen,lightning crap and all that didnt really make that episode bad for me.No,what made it bad for me is that Ive watched the original show.There the second doctor already had a story where daleks wanted to figure out "the human factor",and it all ended with dalek human hybrids and daleks fighting daleks,only it was done MUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCH better,and is one of the best stories of the entire show.

So redoing one of the best stories and failing vs redoing one of the ok stories and failing?Yeah,this one was not as bad as the daleks in manhattan simply because that gap is smaller.Also,manhattan was twice as long,so it was twice as painful to watch.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Doctor Who?

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Sun Oct 12, 2014 5:18 am

I guess balance is restored now.Creepy mummy,tech that is inconsequential(since it is so far beyond our understanding that it is akin to magic),a manic computer,and (almost) everybody lives.Though I wouldnt have minded if clara finally left,but Im not bothered by her staying.Oh,and most importantly,no kids.

Oh,and "are you my mummy" has to be intentional.
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4th Dimension

Re: Doctor Who?

Postby 4th Dimension » Mon Oct 13, 2014 7:14 pm

Yes a good episode, also this one gave the Doctor the chance to shine. In previous ones it was Clara that was allmost the main character. While I didn't mind somebody upstageing the Doctor, some fans I guess were livid. Also we didn't get the appearance of Missy in previous two episodes. Hmm wonder why is that.
Oh and I don't really get what happened at the end with Clara. She told her boyfriend she is stopping with hanging out with the Doctor, and is still going to travel with him? Is she going to go back to lying?
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Ringwraith

Re: Doctor Who?

Postby Ringwraith » Mon Oct 13, 2014 8:00 pm

The hardest part of an addiction is giving it up, but you only know how hard it is if you try.

It was illustrating that previous line.

The obligatory end-of-episode series-arc scenes are inconsistent, and 'always' (the third episode didn't have one) have been.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Doctor Who?

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Mon Oct 13, 2014 10:55 pm

Hey guys.Heh,funny story,I felt a bit dumb and decided to check some reviews.And,heh,boy was I surprised to see how many people liked to kill the moon,hehe.And a particular sentence caught my eye,so I went back and rewatched a certain part,hehe.And,you wont believe this,heh,but doctor who actually,hehe,for real,no bullshit,heh,he actually says "Its your moon,womankind".Hahaha,now aint that hilarious?No joke,he says that with a straight face,haha!The whole episode,AHAHA,was actually a,heheheh,a psa about abortion,bwahahaha!Doctor who did a psa on abortion!Aint that funny,haha!And even funnier,HAHAHA,is that they firmly stand on the pro life side,HAHAHA!I kid you not.

Oh dear god!I thought that that was a bad episode,but not the worst one,and then I had to go and check and actually hear that IDIOTIC line myself!This is now officially as bad as love and monsters,the worst two episodes of the new who,and probably of the whole show in general.That fucking angle fucking kills the one good scene of the whole episode by painting clara as a mother left by her lover unwilling to commit!Fucking psa with a fucking preachy message fucking ruining even the decent acting,fuck you Peter Harness.

EDIT:Sorry,I had to vent.It just made me angry.But thank you Thomas,for making my mind think of ludonarrative dissonance,it always makes me chuckle and mellow out.The power of the Beard is soothing.
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Ringwraith

Re: Doctor Who?

Postby Ringwraith » Tue Oct 14, 2014 12:28 am

Oh, I spotted that analogy well before that.
That only reinforced it, by nailing it to the floor. (Although it fits his current tendency to be unusually specific about things).
It was way too heavy-handed.
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Thomas

Re: Doctor Who?

Postby Thomas » Tue Oct 14, 2014 12:50 am

I figured during the episode that it probably passed the writer's mind, but given that the metaphor was so completely unworkable I like to think that it wasn't their main intent. In most situations people don't have to choose between a baby and flooding half of New York.

I guess that line would be pro-feminist - pro-life which is at least one of the slightly less common sides of the discussion (with not-feminist as opposed to anti-feminist being the normal contrast). It would make the reason for the Doctor leaving much more rubbish though. It makes me wonder how they write these particular episodes, because the Doctor pissing off Clara seems like it's essential to the season arc. Did someone write the episode and then Moffat used the opportunity to make a framework for his arc or did someone get told they had to write it so Clara and the Doctor left.

I'm not sure how I feel about the arc as a whole, the transition in this episode wasn't smooth, but at least the episode was great. Gus could be a fun arc.

I was one of the people who quite liked Clara but it's actually this season that's making me rail against Moffat's writing of her more than the others. Because she's phasing in and out of having a personality every other episode, it's just stressing how poorly written she's been.

I just wish you could describe her personality as more than 'plot-conveniently quirky'

But I still don't want her to leave, because I have like zero faith that Moffat knows how a functioning woman works and it's basically guaranteed that whoever replaces Clara is going to have the exact same traits he gave to Amy and River Song and Irene Adler and every passing female character in the series that he actually wrote. Amy just had the advantage of being the first so we could all think she was a distinct person with motivations that didn't revolve around the Doctor and stuff. This is all making me wish we had Martha Jones back. At least being bland was something Martha could call her own.

I know he isn't writing all these episodes himself, but the issue is we've got a bunch of writers who've got to write for Clara and they don't have a clue what to write for her because Moffat has never actually established anything other than the afore-mentioned quirkyness. It's like someone has distilled Whedony dialogue, but not the interesting characters behind the dialogue and only for one gender.
Steve C

Re: Doctor Who?

Postby Steve C » Tue Oct 14, 2014 4:12 am

So you guys liked the mummy episode? I found it boring. I had Doctor Who on auto record. Now I removed it. I figure if I see it, I see it. If I don't, I don't.

btw: I caught the "womankind" reference and totally missed the abortion metaphor because that's really stupid.
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Thomas

Re: Doctor Who?

Postby Thomas » Tue Oct 14, 2014 9:04 am

Incidentally, the whole 'womankind' line might easily be a reference to 'a great leap for mankind'. That's what I assume it is
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Ringwraith

Re: Doctor Who?

Postby Ringwraith » Tue Oct 14, 2014 10:16 am

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it was.
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4th Dimension

Re: Doctor Who?

Postby 4th Dimension » Tue Oct 14, 2014 9:49 pm

If it was an intentional abortion psa, no matter what side of the issue you stand on, it is a really stupid and heavy handed one. A child might ruin a woman's life, but it will not ruing the entire mankind as a byproduct of it's birth.
Okay, I wote we never, ever, ever ever mention this episode again. I'm activly buring direct the synaptic links that lead from DrWho to it and all otehr common associations. But if you do mention it they will get reinforced and that will not be nice for my blood pressure.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Doctor Who?

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Mon Oct 20, 2014 11:39 pm

Im (more than) a bit tired of the doctor/companion relationship being like that of a couple.I mean seriously,a "cheating" subplot?*sigh*

Also,9 episodes and still just a snippet of missy?I much preferred how the rebel flesh did it,with revealing the overarching story half way through the season,instead of dragging it out.Or how bad wolf did it,with mostly easter eggs.But this calling things to attention,while never explaining it?Its getting tiresome.

I would talk about the episode itself,but these two issues have just overwhelmed everything else for me.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Doctor Who?

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Sun Oct 26, 2014 7:32 am

Huh...Who wouldve thought that an environmentalism psa would be amongst the good episodes.Heck,I didnt even mind the solar flare mumbo jumbo.And pink actually had a smart speech in the end.And the kids werent annoying this time.

Its a shame though that I dont know if its me having lower expectations this time,or whether the episode itself actually was ok.
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4th Dimension

Re: Doctor Who?

Postby 4th Dimension » Sun Oct 26, 2014 4:57 pm

The episode did have some fun times allthough I couldn't buy the explanation of trees pumping oxigen to cusion heatweave of a solar flare. And I couldn't comprehend what those faries were and what the girl said they looked like before Doctor did magic. Basically I don't comprehend what excatly that girl did. Oh and that "we are going to start buring the forest without checking if somebody is still in it" was stupid. But despite it's quite a fiew stupidities it was fun.
Steve C

Re: Doctor Who?

Postby Steve C » Sun Oct 26, 2014 6:39 pm

Really? You liked it? I got halfway through it and couldn't stand it anymore. The Doctor not giving a crap about a little girl was a bit of a stretch given Matt Smith Doctor cared about kids so much it was a plot point a few times. Then The Doctor spouting out how forests = nightmares was hard to take. Then the guys setting fires (fire being an incredibly stupid STUPID way of dealing with unwanted trees as opposed to chainsaws, axes and machetes) and them being told and not caring that they were going burn a little girl in the trees was too much. Then the fires not starting because the trees were denying the fire oxygen was the final straw. Then then then then... Turned it off and went and patched my computer instead.
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4th Dimension

Re: Doctor Who?

Postby 4th Dimension » Tue Oct 28, 2014 8:42 am

Well being a bit of an insensitive jackass is apparently a thing with the new doctor. But yes there were a lot of stupid unscientific things being said on this episode. And yet the only one that managed to crack my suspension of disbelief was that Oxigen air cushion explanation of how a forest will prevent a solar flare.

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