Agents of SHIELD (Spoilers Here, In Extra Ludicrous Detail)

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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Agents of SHIELD (Spoilers Here, In Extra Ludicrous Deta

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Wed Apr 27, 2016 10:30 am

Agents of shield+human revolution.Thats a crossover I never expected to see.

I agree with coulson,that is cool.Poor guy,losing limbs one by one.Soon he will be more machine than man.

I like hive.It isnt evil.And conflict between individuals and a hive mind is always an interesting one to explore in fiction.
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4th Dimension

Re: Agents of SHIELD (Spoilers Here, In Extra Ludicrous Deta

Postby 4th Dimension » Wed Apr 27, 2016 2:57 pm

He does kind of grow on you. Allthough I hate when shows do this not much hope, vilians are running the show thing. Allthough the Ozzy is also fun, because of how much scenery is he chewing.

For me such conflict is less fun because for me there is only one correct answer.

Also cool shield brah. Totally not reminiscent of Cap's shield.

We mostly see new Hive aquisition/s. I wonder what silliness are the old Hivehumans up to.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Agents of SHIELD (Spoilers Here, In Extra Ludicrous Deta

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Wed Apr 27, 2016 3:18 pm

4th Dimension wrote:For me such conflict is less fun because for me there is only one correct answer.


And that answer is the borg.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Agents of SHIELD (Spoilers Here, In Extra Ludicrous Deta

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Wed May 04, 2016 5:57 am

Well that was disappointing.On multiple fronts.

First,the kree were so hyped up and ended up being nothing.For a group meant to hunt inhumans,they were surprisingly lacking in any anti inhuman capabilities.No immunity to their powers,no gizmos to weaken them,nothing.Not to mention that they appeared weaker than the last kree we saw.Shameful.

Second,why the hell wasnt shield using the implosion bombs?Whats was the point of introducing those when no one is using them?So they expected to just go there and use a single ARMOR PIERCING rocket?Not an ANTI PERSONNEL one,but an ARMOR PIERCING one?Seriously??Thats the lamest plan ever.

Daisy/mack interaction was cool though.And may doing the covert interrogation was fun.But those werent the main things carrying the episode.
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4th Dimension

Re: Agents of SHIELD (Spoilers Here, In Extra Ludicrous Deta

Postby 4th Dimension » Wed May 04, 2016 6:51 am

Haven't watched the episode yet but I kind of expected for the Kree's to fizzle out. If Kree learn of Earth and Inhumans it might be too much of a game changer and we can not have that in MCU done in a TV show.
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4th Dimension

Re: Agents of SHIELD (Spoilers Here, In Extra Ludicrous Deta

Postby 4th Dimension » Wed May 04, 2016 2:53 pm

Yeah. That rocket was whimpy. If it had at least totaled the rest of the room and then they had Hive emerge from the wreckage, that would be something but this was pathetic. They need to treat him as an nanomachine vector. And there is only one "simple" way to deal with those. FIRE! HEAT! They and his microorganisms probably can withstand infinite pressure but I doubt they can withstand properly applied heat. Also it's not like they don't have planes with heavier ordinance. That church should ahve been flattened with any heat based ordinance made by humanity to burn our opponents alive.
Steve C

Re: Agents of SHIELD (Spoilers Here, In Extra Ludicrous Deta

Postby Steve C » Thu May 05, 2016 2:10 am

Na. Hive can take all of that and still be fine. Lest anyone forget, (and apparently SHIELD did forget) Hive survived on the alien planet for a really long time. A planet that was inhabited that stopped being inhabited because of him. I got the impression (I think it was from sand turned to glass) that the alien world used nuclear weapons. I don't he can be killed with heat.

But you know something that SHIELD already has that could kill him? Those flying boxes. Get one all nice and airtight with Hive inside. Then send it into outer space by a space capable vehicle. Finally detonate it exactly like we saw in the very first scene of this season. BTW It's not the heat that's important, it's the inertia keeping the swarm from forming- blown apart and nothing to allow it to reform.

Basically exactly what any show should do to kill an immortal being made of flesh- put them somewhere where they cannot interact with their environment. <cough>Legends of Tomorrow<cough>

Though I laughed at the "Who's going to die!?!" voiceover at the end of the episode. It was like the Ponce de León episode of Clone High. Assuming you don't get that reference, they made a big deal out of "One of these clones is going to die!!" <shows all main characters + one character no one has seen before>. Fake pathos go!
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Agents of SHIELD (Spoilers Here, In Extra Ludicrous Deta

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Wed May 11, 2016 7:44 am

Oh yeah,Ive remembered what bothered me the last time."Your immune system is completely destroyed",and then she casually strolls in the supposed "clean room".I mean come on,what kind of biochemist are you?Are you trying to kill the patient?
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4th Dimension

Re: Agents of SHIELD (Spoilers Here, In Extra Ludicrous Deta

Postby 4th Dimension » Wed May 11, 2016 3:58 pm

And we now know, or at least think we know who will be in that Quinjet.

Finally I no longer have to see Daisy mind controlled puppet of Hive. Lash's death was a letdown but I knew it was coming considering how much of an IDIOT he was being not taking out Hive after saving Daisy. Although I guess the idea was that it was the Doctor that saved Daisy from Hive. Also Isn't Ozzy guys power to make things explode and not set them on fire? The Anti-special guys also won the Darwin award with not shooting the Inhuman they were faced with after it turned out their ambush was a bust.

I have been thinking about Hive. Considering how much he likes to monologue about better tomorrow for Inhumans, this character would have been better off as a Magneto type of character who is leading willing Inhumans towards his vision of better tomorrow, no mind control necessary.
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4th Dimension

Re: Agents of SHIELD (Spoilers Here, In Extra Ludicrous Deta

Postby 4th Dimension » Sun May 15, 2016 3:22 pm

@Supahewok Those were exactly my problems with the reasons presented for the Sokovia accords. They would have stopped NONE of the events they blame Avengers for. On the other hand I am a firm believer that there should be some oversight, and if some avenger does clearly step out of his Avenger status should be revoked and he should face charges. But until then the events of past years in MCU have proven that the world NEEDS a fast response unit that can be on the scene in HOURS not WEEKS it would take diplomacy.

I also don't think Zemo got Crossbones to get him the bioweapon, unless he did it to draw in the Avengers. His plan was never mass destruction but getting hold of that video of WS executing Starks and sending it to Tony at the best/worst time and watch the fireworks.

Yes Cap's performance was a bit muted since he really had nothing much to work with after the funeral. After that he was Cap, confident in his moral superiority and willing to do anything to do the right thing. Which is right for him since he is basically MCU Superman moral compass wise. If Cap says something is right or wrong you don't question him much.

I'm also sorry for Zemo coz he got closest to victory of them all (he did not completely win since most of the Avengers are Cap aligned now) but he needed to be unassuming to sell the idea of a normal guy with the right skills was able to bring down a team of superheroes.

I didn't feel Antman being there was out of character, especially considering he already did questionably illegal things for Pym. Also Pym would have been TOTALLY on board of sticking it to the Starks and would be against the registration part of the Sokovia accords. Also Cap is a big deal in this universe. You do not decline the invitation from Cap.
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Thomas

Re: Agents of SHIELD (Spoilers Here, In Extra Ludicrous Deta

Postby Thomas » Sun May 15, 2016 6:37 pm

I agree by the way that the Sokovia accords wouldn't be at all effective. The reality is, they should either join the Police Force as a SWAT team, or some kind of fast-response task force - exactly what the Avengers under Shield were, but with after-the-fact responsibility and evaluation. Like how the police force and army work now in fact.

But the wider point is, the Avengers shouldn't get to choose what they obey and what they don't. No-one can make them join the task-force, but it absolutely is fine to say "What you're doing now is illegal, if you don't like it retire".

It's such a superhero answer to blow things up and punch things because you don't like them, rather than have the patience to go through the proper diplomatic channels that everyone else goes through. People would very quickly realise the Sovokia Accords don't work and accept proper changes.

The only legitimacy to Captain America's stance is that he's so much stronger than normal people he can't be stopped. He's not arguing through reasoning, or through diplomatic or political or grass roots advocacy. He's just saying "You say the law should be this way. But I'd like to see the police try and stop me when I can knock them all out single-handedly".

That's not justice. The only way you can even be fooled into thinking it's justice is because Captain America is a nice person. If it was even a person with average morals bending bars in prison cells, it would be completely the wrong way to go about it. We didn't storm Guantánamo, we didn't break Nelson Mandella out of his prison. We campaigned to change the laws and eventually the laws changed.

Does Captain America even talk to a member of the public in this film? Does he ever listen?
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Agents of SHIELD (Spoilers Here, In Extra Ludicrous Deta

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Sun May 15, 2016 7:02 pm

But we are not talking about any person here,we are talking about captain america,the only human that was able to even nudge tors hammer,an artifact that literally can be moved only by good people.In a world where such a thing exists,you cant really apply the laws the same to everyone.
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Thomas

Re: Agents of SHIELD (Spoilers Here, In Extra Ludicrous Deta

Postby Thomas » Sun May 15, 2016 7:52 pm

I'm not saying the laws shouldn't recognise his ability and his ability to do great things to save the country. We absolute should create an environment where he can be a superhero and do super things.

But changing the law to allow him a place is very different from saying Captain America is entirely above the law. He's not. If the people make a law he's not happy with, he should try and win their hearts and get them to change it. After all, we're not talking about any person here. We're talking about Captain America, the First Avenger, the only human who was able to nudge Thor's hammer. I believe if he would ask, we would listen.

It's worrying he doesn't think to ask.
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4th Dimension

Re: Agents of SHIELD (Spoilers Here, In Extra Ludicrous Deta

Postby 4th Dimension » Sun May 15, 2016 8:33 pm

While I agree oversight is needed, folding the Avengers into an preexisting force of ANY nation would have been a MISTAKE. That way they are no longer impartial and people are likely to doubt their motives.
No way you look at it we can not simply use only our world expirience because our world does not have the threaths the kind of MCU faces now, where you need to act NOW anywhere in the world or thousands or millions could die.
The reason airport fight happened was because Cap (thought) had actionable information and HAD to get to that bunker before Zemo puts his plan in motion. And Stark wouldn't let him go off. In our world things don't change that much in couple of days, but in MCU they can.
Cap also unfortunatelly is not a politician and doesn't do politics. If he sees a wrong, he is less likely to try changing the system through political and diplomatic dialog than going down there in the street and solving the problem in person physically. That is one of his limitations. That is why he did not think of political campaign to free his friends, which could have been launched from Wakanda.
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Supahewok

Re: Agents of SHIELD (Spoilers Here, In Extra Ludicrous Deta

Postby Supahewok » Sun May 15, 2016 8:48 pm

Sorry in advance, bjt this reply is gonna be all mangled and Im not gonna do quotes cuz I'm on my phone cuz I haven't had opportunity to unpack yet.

The Avengers don't handle threats like everyone else does. They deal with planet destroyers, people who work over so many borders with so much disregard for the law that I don't think that the Acengers could do their job within the law.

"People would very quickly realise the Sovokia Accords don't work and accept proper changes."

I can't think of a reply to that which doesn't dive into tje Forbidden Forum. Let's just put it that I have a lot less faith in the political system, particularly the UN, than you do.

I didn't know that folks were successfully petitioned out of Guatanomo. Invalid point on my part. However, Cap at that point was a fugitive on the run. Unless he just happened to have a flashdrive with data on the prison, he doesn't have any means of proving that it exists, and honestky, underwater prison in the middle of nowhere is a big pill to swallow without proof. Government could steamroll Cap on that point.

UN Reps aren't elected, at least not in the US. Their will does not necessarily reflect the will of the people, and can't be taken as such. We dont ever see any protests or anything. And on a cynical note, I can see a measure being passed to obtain control of the world's most powerful superbeings being very popular among those holding the reins of power.

I think after action accountability is reasonable. Stark should've been brought up on charges of... I dunno, negligence? Endangerment? After that crap with Ultron. I think the world doesn't know that he created Ultron. Sokovia is brought up a lot, but not necessarily that Stark built the robot that flew it into the air. So that might be a dirty secret the Avengers are hiding.

Zemo absolutely lost. Yeah, half the Avengers are fugitives, but Cap left Tony a lifeline, and Tony seems to have accepted it. Nobody died. Nobody cares about Warmachine (and really, a guy who wears a robotic suit for all his powers is like the guy who can deal with being paralyzed the best, the suit can be prgrammed to walkbfor him). The Accords were coming regardless of his actions. He made things worse but he ultimately didn't do anything of lasting harm.

Aaaaaaand in the time it took to type this out on a damn phone there's been two replies. Screw it. If I wanna add anything else I'll do it tomorrow.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Agents of SHIELD (Spoilers Here, In Extra Ludicrous Deta

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Sun May 15, 2016 9:17 pm

Thomas wrote:But changing the law to allow him a place is very different from saying Captain America is entirely above the law. He's not. If the people make a law he's not happy with, he should try and win their hearts and get them to change it. After all, we're not talking about any person here. We're talking about Captain America, the First Avenger, the only human who was able to nudge Thor's hammer. I believe if he would ask, we would listen.


But he is also not a politician,but a soldier.They did try to make him into a figure that people will watch and cheer for,and it was successful,people did cheer for him.But he was still uncomfortable in that position.Cap acts,he doesnt think.
Steve C

Re: Agents of SHIELD (Spoilers Here, In Extra Ludicrous Deta

Postby Steve C » Mon May 16, 2016 12:19 am

One of the interesting things about the Sovokia Accords is that of all the Avengers who signed them, they all would have ignored the Accords when push came to shove. Especially Stark. Captain America would not see it the same as any of the others. He'd view it as giving his word. All the Avengers know they are going to have to break those accords at some point. So for some it is about optics, for others it is expedience, and others it is about principles. For Steve Rodgers it was about breaking his word.

I'm very curious about Banner's and Thor's take on all this. Hulk's nemesis is the US military. Thor represents an independent world that views Earth as full of naive immature children. I have no idea if Thor would laugh at the Accords or view them as a treaty in diplomatic terms. It was right not to include Hulk/Thor in the movie as it would have been bad for the movie. I'm still really curious on their takes.

Oh and I'm 99% sure that all the Act 1 action in Africa had nothing to do with Zemo.
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4th Dimension

Re: Agents of SHIELD (Spoilers Here, In Extra Ludicrous Deta

Postby 4th Dimension » Mon May 16, 2016 5:53 am

Thor is definitely not a ruler material so he is most likely to be brash and laugh at silly Earthling rules restricting warriors do what is right.
Banner? On one hand he is constantly being chased by the military so he could agree with Stark to sign in exchange for amnesty for the things he had done previously. On the other hand the entire setup would smell bad to him, as something to really piss him off and cause him to go Hulk and cause even more destruction so he is also likely to split from the problem all together.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Agents of SHIELD (Spoilers Here, In Extra Ludicrous Deta

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Mon May 16, 2016 7:26 am

Steve C wrote:Especially Stark.


Well the only reason he signed was guilt.He feels like he lost control of his life and needs someone to set him straight,and he probably is not wrong.But on the other hand,he doesnt want to listen to anyone.Despite his age,stark is still just a brat.

As for banner,he is a difficult one.On the one hand,he too thinks that hulk needs to be kept in check.On the other hand,he knows that no one and nothing can control the hulk.

Thor...I think he would sign actually.Not because he believes in the document,but rather because he does not want to break humanitys laws(too much).He still would not bother with abiding by it anyway,but he would sign.

And you are correct about cap.To him,its more than just a piece of paper,but to the rest,its not that important.Stank thinks that he can just tweak it whenever he finds something is not to his liking,nat already broke it(as did the panther),vision just wants to be diplomatic but will break it if he thinks that would be a more logical choice at the time,spiderman is too young to even know what a legally binding document is.The only ones that treat it seriously,other than cap,are war machine and falcon,the other two soldiers of the group.
Steve C

Re: Agents of SHIELD (Spoilers Here, In Extra Ludicrous Deta

Postby Steve C » Mon May 16, 2016 5:58 pm

Oh ya of course. The reason Stark signed was definitely guilt. My point is that Stark will break it later and not think twice about doing so. As you say, he can just tweak *anything* whenever he finds it is not to his liking.

I disagree about Black Panther and Spiderman. I'm pretty sure Black Panther did not sign it, and will never have to. He's the king of his own country and not an Avenger. He makes his own laws. Diplomatic immunity and all that. And Spiderman knows what he's doing. He's not to young.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Agents of SHIELD (Spoilers Here, In Extra Ludicrous Deta

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Mon May 16, 2016 6:21 pm

Steve C wrote:Diplomatic immunity and all that.


Im pretty sure diplomatic immunity extends only to the country a diplomat is stationed in during that period.And even then,his people can still rebel against a king who gives them a bad name.Then there are sanctions of all kinds that his reckless behavior could cause.Also,just because he personally did not sign,his father did.Being a king still does not mean he can do whatever.His country may be powerful,and he may rule it,but to what extent those two go is unclear.

Steve C wrote:And Spiderman knows what he's doing. He's not to young.


He is a teen.Teens have no clue.Especially when they think they do.
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Thomas

Re: Agents of SHIELD (Spoilers Here, In Extra Ludicrous Deta

Postby Thomas » Mon May 16, 2016 6:35 pm

Supahewok wrote:I didn't know that folks were successfully petitioned out of Guatanomo. Invalid point on my part. However, Cap at that point was a fugitive on the run. Unless he just happened to have a flashdrive with data on the prison, he doesn't have any means of proving that it exists, and honestky, underwater prison in the middle of nowhere is a big pill to swallow without proof. Government could steamroll Cap on that point.


'The bad side is so ludicrously unreal that in this fictional universe no-one would believe the most respected hero in the world if he said it exists' is exactly my problem with the way the film portrays the conflict.


And for all the 'Cap isn't a politician' arguments. If you're blowing up airports because you're not a politician and aren't willing to get involved in politics (or literally talk to anyone at all), you're not a good guy. The fact that his first line of resort is to fight - even with massive collateral damage, is exactly why he needs restrictions despite being 'canonically pure-hearted'.


This is the problem with the whole debate, all the real answers are, that superheroes are ridiculous in the real world, that actually there are better ways to solve problems than punching things, and that the only way superheroes justify their existence is to create unrealistic threats that just so happen to be able to be best solved by punching. And it just so happens that the people who are strongest at punching are _written_ to be pure-hearted, so it's okay then. (Imagine if it was the villains who were physically stronger, imagine if it's that guy down the pub who's nice enough but doesn't know where to draw the line with women. How would we feel when he 'takes a stand').

I'm happy to accept all these things to enjoy a good superhero film. But when you have to accept those many many contrivances in order to have the argument that's at the main conflict of the film, it gets silly.

Cap's philosophy in Captain America: Civil War is the extremist form of objectivism. No-one should be allowed to curtail his freedom and he is justified to use all his strength to exert his will to the ideals that he believes in without having to adjust to the opinions of anyone else (name one person Cap listens to in this film. He doesn't even listen to Buddy when Buddy says this might not be worth it). It's the same philosophy of the people staking out that bird reservation in a ranch in the middle of the US. Except it's okay because it's written down that he's a 'nice person'.

In the real world, there may be many advantages to some of the points of that stane and lots of people would argue the world would be better if we shifted more towards it. But not a single country on earth operates 100% like that, because in real life it's not fully practical. It only works completely with the plot contrivances at the centre of the marvel universe.
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krellen
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Re: Agents of SHIELD (Spoilers Here, In Extra Ludicrous Deta

Postby krellen » Mon May 16, 2016 7:02 pm

Daemian Lucifer wrote:His country may be powerful,and he may rule it,but to what extent those two go is unclear.

The movie doesn't make it clear - perhaps his own film in 2018 will do so - but in the comics, Wakanda is the most powerful country in the world because they control all of the world's vibranium. Armies of people with Cap's shield makes you pretty impressive. And he's a king in the classic sense - he has a council that advises him, but his word is law.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Agents of SHIELD (Spoilers Here, In Extra Ludicrous Deta

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Mon May 16, 2016 8:09 pm

Thomas wrote:And for all the 'Cap isn't a politician' arguments. If you're blowing up airports because you're not a politician and aren't willing to get involved in politics (or literally talk to anyone at all), you're not a good guy. The fact that his first line of resort is to fight - even with massive collateral damage, is exactly why he needs restrictions despite being 'canonically pure-hearted'.


Except its not his first instinct.He tried to flee,to get to the dangerous guy without anyone intercepting him.But when intercepted,he still fought only to get to the plane.
Steve C

Re: Agents of SHIELD (Spoilers Here, In Extra Ludicrous Deta

Postby Steve C » Tue May 17, 2016 12:30 am

Daemian Lucifer wrote:
Steve C wrote:And Spiderman knows what he's doing. He's not to young.


He is a teen.Teens have no clue.Especially when they think they do.

I disagree strongly. This is now entering into politics and I'm not going to continue.

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