Avatar and legend of korra

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Sudanna

Re: Avatar and legend of korra

Postby Sudanna » Sat Dec 20, 2014 11:47 pm

Daemian Lucifer wrote:What all of you keep neglecting is that this is a western childrens cartoon.Yes,having a lesbian couple in a tv show or a movie is safe and pandering.Yes having an anime with girl on girl(or boy on boy)action is nothing new.But an american cartoon for kids?Heck,some even say that nick was jerking them around so much because they killed their villain in season one,because they think it was too adult.So to even get this past them is neither safe,nor pandering.


SpammyV and I did both go out of the way to say that it's not necessarily this show in particular we were talking about, just that it reminded us of the trend. :p

rrgg, if you don't wanna make any interpretations until the creators of the show explicitly tell you what conclusions to draw. . . I mean, fine, but that's silly. A) The author is, as always, dead, B) They're prolly not gonna explicitly say anything about this in particular, and C) You should at least recognize that it's probably a romantic scene, even if you don't wanna decide for yourself.
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SpammyV
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Re: Avatar and legend of korra

Postby SpammyV » Sun Dec 21, 2014 12:18 am

I could've sworn that someone in the thread said something like, "You don't understand relationships man" and I was going to say that was my favorite part of the thread but maybe I just imagined it or read it in another thread summoned it from the vibes I was getting.

I'll give you Utena, but unless you're specifically talking about Uranus/Neptune, I'm not sure how "lesbian" Sailor Moon is. The central relationship of the series is heterosexual, and three out of five of the main characters are boy-crazy/largely preoccupied with boys or past relationships with boys.


That I'll admit could just be a case of specific exposure, as I know just enough about Sailor Moon to recognize that one of that couple is her favorite character. In a very "Of course she is" way to me.

What all of you keep neglecting is that this is a western childrens cartoon.Yes,having a lesbian couple in a tv show or a movie is safe and pandering.Yes having an anime with girl on girl(or boy on boy)action is nothing new.But an american cartoon for kids?Heck,some even say that nick was jerking them around so much because they killed their villain in season one,because they think it was too adult.So to even get this past them is neither safe,nor pandering.


This may also be a case of specific exposure, but I'm really not sure that I buy the argument that the franchise is for kids, as it seems that the people who are really in to it are the people my age. I would guess that the creators are at least aware of the adult audience even if they're not exactly shooting for them. And you can pander to what is not your primary (I don't actually believe children are the primary) audience. There's the idea of Parental Bonus. Or perhaps Tumblr bonus in this case, as it still seems to me (from the outside looking in) that the relationship is not for the 10 year olds watching it but the 20-somethings who exploded over the ending and will now generate free publicity about how awesome and brave and progressive the creators are and aren't they great people we should watch what they make forever. The italics there indicate exaggeration.

Dropping this in the last minute of the last episode isn't brave. At that point, viewers have already made their investment... what're they gonna do? Stop watching? They risked nothing.


I think we're essentially on the same wavelength with this and teh big refeal about Dumbledore.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Avatar and legend of korra

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Sun Dec 21, 2014 12:37 am

rrgg wrote:To be honest not really, given that it was a nicktoon about 10 year olds. Plus it came up long before the ending in dialog and episode plots. But that's sort of besides the point, what determines which conventions are right and wrong? Why does the end all relationship have to be romantic as you put it?


It doesnt have to,but it is what is common for western shows of today,animated or acted.This has nothing to do with what is right or wrong,but about what is common.This is why we have romance options in every bioware game,even though they are way better at writing friendships than romances.

SpammyV wrote:but I'm really not sure that I buy the argument that the franchise is for kids,


Doesnt matter,nickelodeon is.And theyve showed time and time again with corra how zealous they can be if a show doesnt center on their primary audience.Of course,its their channel,they can do whatever they want,but I think its a bit narrow minded.

SpammyV wrote:I think we're essentially on the same wavelength with this and teh big refeal about Dumbledore.


Not quite,seeing how this one was shown during the show,instead of just being told after its over.And really,whats better:something shown inside the work itself,or something the author tells us outside the work,but isnt even hinted inside it?
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Sudanna

Re: Avatar and legend of korra

Postby Sudanna » Sun Dec 21, 2014 1:11 am

Um, Dumbledore being gay was hinted in the work, if only barely. At least, it was hinted enough that I thought there was gay stuff with Grindelwald at the time. Maybe it was just early teenage Nalyd with wishful thinking, but I definitely saw it.
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SpammyV
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Re: Avatar and legend of korra

Postby SpammyV » Sun Dec 21, 2014 2:14 am

Doesnt matter,nickelodeon is.And theyve showed time and time again with corra how zealous they can be if a show doesnt center on their primary audience.Of course,its their channel,they can do whatever they want,but I think its a bit narrow minded.


I suppose? After ruminating on the idea, I think it's like telling me that all the references in Megas XLR to Science Ninja Team Gatchaman and Captain Harlock and Space Battleship Yamato plus the hiring of Peter Cullen and Frank Welker to play rival giant robots is all for the kids and none of it was actually meant for older audiences.

Um, Dumbledore being gay was hinted in the work, if only barely. At least, it was hinted enough that I thought there was gay stuff with Grindelwald at the time. Maybe it was just early teenage Nalyd with wishful thinking, but I definitely saw it.


Fair enough, I never heard about it until teh big refeal.
rrgg

Re: Avatar and legend of korra

Postby rrgg » Sun Dec 21, 2014 2:22 am

Btw, still haven't seen much discussion about what has to be the most outrageous ship from the finale: Zhu Li actually makes it out of the friend zone? Completely ridiculous and unrealistic!

Also Bolin is apparently licensed to perform wedding ceremonies now.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Avatar and legend of korra

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Sun Dec 21, 2014 4:10 am

SpammyV wrote:I suppose? After ruminating on the idea, I think it's like telling me that all the references in Megas XLR to Science Ninja Team Gatchaman and Captain Harlock and Space Battleship Yamato plus the hiring of Peter Cullen and Frank Welker to play rival giant robots is all for the kids and none of it was actually meant for older audiences.


Well what the network wants does not have to be the same as what the artist wants.I mean just look at all the crap looney tunes and animaniacs managed to pull.

rrgg wrote:Btw, still haven't seen much discussion about what has to be the most outrageous ship from the finale: Zhu Li actually makes it out of the friend zone? Completely ridiculous and unrealistic!


Ehh,I just ignored it.Not much of a reason to get upset about,and it was mercifully short.

rrgg wrote:Also Bolin is apparently licensed to perform wedding ceremonies now.


Yeah,we never got how marriage works in this world and whether there are licenses or stuff.Maybe he was just like a best man or something.
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Sudanna

Re: Avatar and legend of korra

Postby Sudanna » Sun Dec 21, 2014 5:05 am

Varrick as a character in general deteriorated since season 2. The Zhu Li romance juuuust continued it.
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Narratorway
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Re: Avatar and legend of korra

Postby Narratorway » Sun Dec 21, 2014 8:26 am

There's this very specific moment in Season 3 where Varrick does a thing and then absentmindedly commands Zhu Li to pick up after him, when said thing creates a mess and we see this gesture from her where she droops her shoulders in exasperated frustration. The first time I saw it, I heaved a heavy sigh and uttered 'Goddammit...'.

I love me the shit outta Season 3, but if there's one thing I can point to as a specific no-no, it was destroying the dynamic and interestingly symbiotic relationship those two had. Season 2 Zhu Li was described as cold and heartless and had the demeanor to back that up, but also completely submitted herself to this madman despite never actually behaving submissive and being fully capable and competent on her own. That's a lot of interesting contradictions to nibble on for a relationship that they decided to sweep away in order to have yet another bog-standard unrequited love narrative.

Side note: Millions of people are now displaced.

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Kavonde
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Re: Avatar and legend of korra

Postby Kavonde » Tue Dec 23, 2014 1:57 am

Just watched the finale. Good for Korra and Asami. I was never a heavy Korrasami shipper, but once they hooked Bolin up, Asami was the only other character in the show I could see Korra developing a relationship with.

Looking at the last couple of pages' discussion, though, I guess I can see how having Korrasami become canon at the last moment could be seen in a negative light. I don't know if I'd call it pandering for positive progressive media attention as much as I'd call it pandering to a fanbase that has always been very, very vocal about their ships--to the point where the show's creators would often reference it in panels and interviews.
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Thomas

Re: Avatar and legend of korra

Postby Thomas » Tue Dec 23, 2014 2:08 am

Speaking with some other people on the internet, I also think if you didn't know a Korrasami shipper then you probably weren't reading much into the earlier season 3/season 4 stuff and so, for some people, it looks like this came out of thin air.

The Legend of Korra people probably inter-mingle with their fans online to an unusual degree and TLOK has a super-active Tumblr community, so I guess in some ways this is an off product of that.

I'm still too happy it happened and about the way it happened to care but I can see how weird it might have come off to some viewers. One of the things I like about the way it came about is, it's a very different way of entering a relationship than you normally see in TV/books. Because will they/won't they is such a cornerstone of fiction, you normally have the really overt slap-slap-kiss arc or blush-blush-kiss, something like that. But here, it's more like two people who've realised they've come to let the other person deeply into their lives and they kind of like to see where it could go.
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JadedDM

Re: Avatar and legend of korra

Postby JadedDM » Tue Dec 23, 2014 2:21 am



Oh, when I saw the links I thought you were talking about this.
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SpammyV
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Re: Avatar and legend of korra

Postby SpammyV » Tue Dec 23, 2014 2:26 am

Damn.

After my recent discussion with Damien I really wanted the confirmation to be one of the writers/creators to be at a convention doing a panel and someone asked and they said yes and then the crowd goes nuts and Tumblr goes nuts and the rest of the Internet goes nuts so I could bring up the video and be like, "So this wasn't for the benefit of the 20 something fans who aren't the show's actual audience."

BUT WE DON'T ALWAYS GET THE THINGS WE WANT DO WE.
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Lachlan the Sane
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Re: Avatar and legend of korra

Postby Lachlan the Sane » Tue Dec 23, 2014 2:59 am

Hopefully this will give Frederator the confidence boost they need to actually confirm Bubbleine shipping. Not that it isn't obvious that those two are into each other, but they need to be welded together as a canon couple dammit.

Yes, when it comes to shipping, I'm one of those people.
rrgg

Re: Avatar and legend of korra

Postby rrgg » Tue Dec 23, 2014 5:27 am

Narratorway wrote:Side note: Millions of people are now displaced.

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Thomas

Re: Avatar and legend of korra

Postby Thomas » Tue Dec 23, 2014 11:10 am

Hey, was I the only one who missed the fact that Kuvira used the metal from Zao Fu's domes to build her army/giant mecha?
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Sudanna

Re: Avatar and legend of korra

Postby Sudanna » Tue Dec 23, 2014 11:54 am

Nope. I totally did too.
rrgg

Re: Avatar and legend of korra

Postby rrgg » Tue Dec 23, 2014 5:00 pm

Except it became a plot point that the robot was made out of pure platinum and I don't think they mentioned that being the case for the domes.
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Retsam

Re: Avatar and legend of korra

Postby Retsam » Tue Dec 23, 2014 7:35 pm

Well, the mecha was coated in platinum so they couldn't bend it. The rest of the mecha wasn't platinum and could have been made of the Zaofu's domes' metal, but then there wasn't such a shortage of metal in the Earth Empire to begin with that it really needs explaining where they got the non-platinum metal from. (I mean, based on previous fights, it seems that Kuvira was already wearing about enough metal to build half of it herself)

I suppose there's a nice bit of symbolism of the defensive domes being turned into an offensive weapon by the Earth Empire; but this is just fan speculation, not something that was ever actually mentioned in the show, right?
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Avatar and legend of korra

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Tue Dec 23, 2014 8:23 pm

Retsam wrote:I suppose there's a nice bit of symbolism of the defensive domes being turned into an offensive weapon by the Earth Empire; but this is just fan speculation, not something that was ever actually mentioned in the show, right?


Well the show has showed that it can,from time to time,show something subtle without explicitly stating it.So the domes were used for something offensive,whether it was the army,or the train,or the cannon.

Anyway,on the subject of bending,it has been shown multiple times earlier that benders dont need to see something in order to bend it.So why couldnt they bend the insides of the robot despite the outer coating of platinum?Couldnt a bunch of earth benders place themselves on the visor and thwart kuviras controls for long enough for others to do something elsewhere on the mecha?
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Thomas

Re: Avatar and legend of korra

Postby Thomas » Tue Dec 23, 2014 8:36 pm

I don't know if it was mentioned or not because I missed it, but the Nickelodeon twitter account tweeted "So that's what Zao Fu's dome's were for" and showed a picture of the mecha
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Avatar and legend of korra

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Fri Dec 26, 2014 8:30 pm

Some funy things were said by nostalgia critic and brostalgia critic.

First,damn,why didnt I think of that obvious joke?Two people expressed their love in this episode.Mako and bolin,in that giant robot,finally said that they love each other.

Second,mako is such a spaz that he turned two women gay.Oh the taunts bolin will tell him for that.
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Narratorway
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Re: Avatar and legend of korra

Postby Narratorway » Sat Dec 27, 2014 3:24 am

Am I the only one who views that final scene as the beginning of their romance? Like, they say it came outta nowhere I'm just sitting here all:

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This is literally the most developed relationship she's had with another character in the entire fucking series! What did they want? Yet another terrible romance plot like Makorra? I'm absolutely in agreement with them that it was a gimmick, and I'm nothing but grateful for it. Nothing could have been worse for Korrasami than for Bryke to write about it.

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