TV shows are cool

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Supahewok

Re: TV shows are cool

Postby Supahewok » Sun Jun 11, 2017 1:57 am

Daemian Lucifer wrote:
Wide And Nerdy wrote:Between Cyberpunk, Dark Matter and this I have to ask if there's a space/future show out there with non evil capitalism. Would be nice to have even one..


Ammmm....Does star trek count?They are making a new one after all.Unless they plan to inject some capitalism into that one as well.

How could it count? The only capitalist society shown is the Ferengi. And they're the Ferengi.
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Sudanna

Re: TV shows are cool

Postby Sudanna » Sun Jun 11, 2017 2:38 am

Non-evil capitalism? It's science fiction, not fantasy, bud.

(disclaimer: an unspecified portion of this post is a joke)
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Wide And Nerdy

Re: TV shows are cool

Postby Wide And Nerdy » Sun Jun 11, 2017 4:16 am

Supahewok wrote:
Daemian Lucifer wrote:
Wide And Nerdy wrote:Between Cyberpunk, Dark Matter and this I have to ask if there's a space/future show out there with non evil capitalism. Would be nice to have even one..


Ammmm....Does star trek count?They are making a new one after all.Unless they plan to inject some capitalism into that one as well.

How could it count? The only capitalist society shown is the Ferengi. And they're the Ferengi.


Sadly this is the closest I've seen scifi get to sympathetic treatment since on Deep Space Nine some of the Ferengi are not entirely craven and horrible and there's actually an episode where Nog uses his knowledge of bartering to make people on the station happy. Just think about that. Nog, who by his own admission lacks the lobes to be a good ferengi, is able to improve the lives of everyone aboard the station with a day or two of wheeling and dealing. Imagine how much better the Federation might be doing if it had a proper market. They're supposedly "evolved" humans after all so you wouldn't have all that backwards thinking and greediness you have with the Ferengi. And everyone has replicators so nobody would be participating at an impoverished level.
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Thomas

Re: TV shows are cool

Postby Thomas » Sun Jun 11, 2017 9:23 am

I guess what's missing is specifically positively portrayed Capitalism. Star Wars is a capitalist society. The Expanse is capitalist and I don't think that's portrayed negatively (just some of the organisations in it). There's a lot of sci-fi films which are capitalist with evil companies, but not necessarily decrying the system they exist in (Alien, Bladerunner).

But no-one in Star Wars ever says "Ghee whizz, this free exchange of credits enabled us to build spaceships even though we only have CRT monitors."

I think Firefly is the most pro-capitalist sci-fi series that comes to mind right now. Strong anti-central planning message, heroising being independent and making a living and not controlling other people in making theirs.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: TV shows are cool

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Sun Jun 11, 2017 11:18 am

12 monkeys has no capitalism.Its all about a cult fighting the anti-cult cult.
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krellen
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Re: TV shows are cool

Postby krellen » Sun Jun 11, 2017 1:20 pm

WaN: what would good capitalism look like to you?
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4th Dimension

Re: TV shows are cool

Postby 4th Dimension » Mon Jun 12, 2017 6:44 am

The one where every company was in fact NOT filled with mustache twirling evil dudes that are completely fine with using babies as fuel if it raises their income by tenth of a percent?

BTW WAN we have an Expanse thread, although I kinda sorta put some spoilers there out in the open.
Also the show itself has some differences in tone with the books. At times I feel like The Expanse the show is trying REAL HARD to be Game of Thrones in space, which the books really aren't.
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krellen
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Re: TV shows are cool

Postby krellen » Wed Jun 14, 2017 2:12 pm

So ... the vast majority of depictions of capitalism, then? Just in the superhero genre, we have basically every version of Bruce Wayne, Tony Stark (a capitalist redemption arc!), Oliver Queen, Danny Rand (admittedly this one is terribly acted). Those opposing the "mustache twirling" evil capitalists are frequently capitalists themselves.
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Wide And Nerdy

Re: TV shows are cool

Postby Wide And Nerdy » Wed Jun 14, 2017 5:24 pm

krellen wrote:So ... the vast majority of depictions of capitalism, then? Just in the superhero genre, we have basically every version of Bruce Wayne, Tony Stark (a capitalist redemption arc!), Oliver Queen, Danny Rand (admittedly this one is terribly acted). Those opposing the "mustache twirling" evil capitalists are frequently capitalists themselves.


Yeah, the superhero genre is pretty balanced with good and evil capitalists. Probably my only issue there is that most writers don't understand economics or business so their versions of good capitalism vs bad amounts to how generous the boss is to his employees. I'll grant you thats important and its as much as I could suspect. An evil capitalist could just pay his employees a lot because he likes to be liked and wants the adulation that might come with it (I seem to recall Lex was this type of evil capitalist but then his evil is driven by pride much more than greed).

I'd like to see something a bit more nuanced though. Something like maybe two traders trying to figure out an arrangement that is sustainable and profitable for both of them because they're thinking more than five minutes into the future. Or how chasing a prize fuels innovation to find alternatives to solve a scarcity problem.

But I was referring to scifi specifically. Outside of the superhero genre, it appears as though every benevolent society is something vaguely resembling socialism (which . . . not to knock it. Maybe that makes the most sense when we have replicators and abundant energy which is a very real possibility someday). Meanwhile, most scifi authors think that future tech with capitalism will go horribly wrong. Like we'll use our expanded capabilities to consume at exponential rates only to hit a wall and start sacrificing each other to maintain consumption.

And that is a valid criticism. I just think you could also show the good sometimes. Scifi has good and bad socialism, but only seems to have bad or neutral capitalism.

Maybe its because I watch too much Star Trek and not enough other scifi. That series has a very clear attitude on the subject. Every good society is socialist and every great one is inexplicably also agrarian.

Like Agrarian? Seriously. I'm pretty sure we didn't invent replicators so we could get back to farming.

They're very specific about it too. Note that societies that are based on industry are bad but also societies that are based on Hunting (think the Hirogen). So the history of humanity, according to Gene Roddenberry is that we were evil for millions of years before we finally became good for several thousand years then recently went back to being evil temporarily before being good again.
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krellen
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Re: TV shows are cool

Postby krellen » Wed Jun 14, 2017 6:25 pm

The goods of capitalism largely shine in a system with limited resources; given the premise of unlimited energy, it is hard to see how capitalism continues to be an efficient system, and this is a premise common to many scifi properties. Or if there isn't unlimited energy, there is limited population, which is another instance in which socialism (or really, communism) shines.

If you can conceive of a capitalist society with limitless energy that somehow thrives, maybe you should get a group together and tell your own stories about it, because I sure as heck would be interested to see what you'd come up with.
Steve C

Re: TV shows are cool

Postby Steve C » Wed Jun 14, 2017 7:15 pm

a capitalist society with limitless energy that somehow thrives,

The Expanse? (As was already mentioned.)
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Wide And Nerdy

Re: TV shows are cool

Postby Wide And Nerdy » Thu Jun 15, 2017 1:10 am



I strongly recommend the Giffen-DeMatteis run of Justice League International. Its wonderful stuff and I wish DC still printed comics like that. People remember it as being goofball but honestly they injected comedy by giving a group of adults real personalities and then making them interact. The comedy was logical stuff. Like Mr Miracle destroying the League's NYC brownstone HQ because he didn't realize that many Earth buildings aren't designed to support spacecraft on their roofs. You could see a being from New Genesis making that mistake.
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Lachlan the Sane
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Re: TV shows are cool

Postby Lachlan the Sane » Thu Jun 15, 2017 1:30 am

Hey WaN, would this here comic match your idea of how superheroes should deal with capitalism? :P
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mwchase
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Re: TV shows are cool

Postby mwchase » Thu Jun 15, 2017 2:15 am

Should've called it "Requiem for a Creme".
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Wide And Nerdy

Re: TV shows are cool

Postby Wide And Nerdy » Thu Jun 15, 2017 6:13 pm

Lachlan the Sane wrote:Hey WaN, would this here comic match your idea of how superheroes should deal with capitalism? :P


I really don't care how superheroes deal with it. I was talking about scifi and then someone brought in superheroes because its technically scifi.

That said, I just learned The Last Night was intended to be the very thing I'm asking for (or at least a cyberpunk critique of socialism which would be an interesting twist on the genre). And now he's having to apologize for it. If this results in the game having to be changed, I'm going to be pretty angry. In the past, as you all know, I would have been very very angry because thats how I am. But the docs got me on the good stuff now. Mmmhmmm.
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lurkey

Re: TV shows are cool

Postby lurkey » Tue Jun 20, 2017 7:01 am

"Fortitude". First season was great -- pretty interesting science fiction masquerading as murder mystery (plus some actual murder mystery). In approximate words of Peter Watts, "Fortitude" = Carpenter's "The thing" + "Twin Peaks", only Scandinavishly gloomy and might seem slow for some. Second season had a wee too little science fiction, too much hokey religions for my tastes (but it never fails to warm my heart when representatives of a next Weyland-Yutani clone meet their grisly payback).

"Fortitude" lead me to "Forbrydelsen", yet another science fiction masquerading as murder mystery, because the key protagonist of it is a Terminator. Seriously, if Skynet launched Sarah Lund after Sarah Connor, a nuisance such as metal press would not have stopped her. "Forbrydelsen" also came with a benefit of utterly crushing lives of everyone touched by that murder investigation (save for a cynical, conscience-less, opportunistic weasel). Really refreshing after Hollywood's obligatory happy endings. Also, got me hooked on Nordic Noir.

Next on the line - "Bron/Broen". I hear a lot of good things about it. 8^)
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Thomas

Re: TV shows are cool

Postby Thomas » Sun Jun 25, 2017 8:03 pm

Shows like GLOW are why I give things such high praise for achieving basic storytelling. It must be hard or else so many talented productions wouldn't fail at it. Sometimes it feels like GLOW is moving in a direction and then it jumps somewhere else altogether.

This and Logan have reaffirmed my belief that the people are wrong who think The Last of Us' story is only good for a videogame. So many many TV shows and films have crud writing that 'has a consistent character and events happen that relate to that character in consistent ways' really is the bar.

Like in GLOW the director has no faith in a women's wrestling show working, then he has a vision of a match between a heroic women and the heelish homewrecker who slept with her husband and he gets how the storytelling works and can work with the crowd (which is good, because otherwise the audience would have no belief any of this could ever work).

Next episode he's gone off and written a novel about a radioactive dystopian wasteland for their script. WTF? His vision was a soap opera one episode ago.

EDIT: Orphan Black, another example of a show that can't do the basics right now :(. This is feeling a lot like Heroes season 4. They're putting some things back together and painfully getting back on a path, but it's not as good as the first season and the damage from the previous 2 seasons is just too great.
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SpammyV
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Re: TV shows are cool

Postby SpammyV » Sun Jun 25, 2017 8:16 pm

I watched the pilot episode of The Mist.

The thing I liked about The Mist movie was the monsters, and the sense that as horrifying as they were to us, there was a sense that this was just the normal ecology of some other world we aren't familiar with.

So in that sense, I don't really care that much about this really predictable uninspired small town drama stuff they've got going on. Blah blah teacher teachin' stuff that conservative parents don't want taught, blah blah dangerous teenage parties, blah blah we're so original because all the cops are idiot thugs.
Steve C

Re: TV shows are cool

Postby Steve C » Sun Jun 25, 2017 8:19 pm

I can't tell if you are praising GLOW or condemning it.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: TV shows are cool

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Sun Jun 25, 2017 8:34 pm

Steve C wrote:I can't tell if you are praising GLOW or condemning it.


I think he is condemning it.
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Thomas

Re: TV shows are cool

Postby Thomas » Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:41 am

I lasted 5 episodes because every now and then it would string some motivation together, but it could never keep up even the basics for 5 episodes.

Which is a shame, because talented people are involved
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ecto_stantz_tial
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Re: TV shows are cool

Postby ecto_stantz_tial » Thu Jun 29, 2017 6:09 pm

Thomas wrote:Shows like GLOW are why I give things such high praise for achieving basic storytelling. It must be hard or else so many talented productions wouldn't fail at it. Sometimes it feels like GLOW is moving in a direction and then it jumps somewhere else altogether. ~~ Like in GLOW the director has no faith in a women's wrestling show working, then he has a vision of a match between a heroic women and the heelish homewrecker who slept with her husband and he gets how the storytelling works and can work with the crowd (which is good, because otherwise the audience would have no belief any of this could ever work).

Next episode he's gone off and written a novel about a radioactive dystopian wasteland for their script. WTF? His vision was a soap opera one episode ago.

Having myself just watched the first four episodes I respectfully disagree. My take from it was that the director had no inspiration, and no trust in the production from the get go, then as he sees in the ring two women in a spat it presents the very basic concept of women wrestling right to him, and his mind goes into fantasy mode perverting, and aggrandizing(?) the idea(l), and he becomes inspired. Which then leads to him working on a script for the matches, which the show put forth a few lines earlier to state that his movies have been on the side of schlock, and then that episode and the following go on to further work on that with more examples that his writing style, and story arcs are indeed very schlocky, and he finds it all too easy to inflate himself, his stories, his work with complicated story arcs that he finds to be much more genius than what he can produce or get to come across on screen. Which I think through those four episodes does a good job of setting up a position in which you have a writer/director who majors in schlock, given a task outside of his knowledge, something entirely new to him, something he doesn't know, and when he's inspired is plagued by only being able to write within his scope of schlock, because when you hire/ask someone to write in a new field/media we often times see that their personal style doesn't work in the new medium, as we have seen a number of times with more 'professional' writers and directors delving into video games.

EDIT: Which is to say I think is a benefit to the story, and is intentionally written that way, from beginning to the point where the character director presents his script he's portrayed as out of his element, and he knows it. He has no idea of wrestling, fires the one wrestling coach they had, asks for advice from others even though he's also quick to take charge in a he's right and everyone else is wrong manor at times, fumbles constantly BUT only around the ring.
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SpammyV
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Re: TV shows are cool

Postby SpammyV » Fri Jun 30, 2017 3:27 am

Another episode of The Mist, and more of me not really being into this show, or at least wanting something different from what they're interested in providing. For me, at least, there's not enough sizzle. There's crazy people but we don't see what made them crazy. It's not like the mist itself is making people unhinged, despite the camera effects they use when people are in the mist. It's never made the main characters any less sane. And people have gotten torn up in as gruesome a way as you can get when you're not on premium cable, but what the heck did it? I mean it's not like we've seen claw marks on walls or ominous shapes scurrying off at the edges of vision or having people stop in fear as they hear the slow, ominous flapping of leathery wings high above them.

Also some of the drama in this episode was based on a character acting in a way I find really artificially dumb.

So Hero Mom is trapped in a mall with like fifty other people. They're trying to figure out what to do. A dude who kind of looks like the kind of guy who'd lurk on forums talking about guns and survival bunkers says that after 9/11 the government issued special emergency radios to facilities. Mall manager says they have one but it's in the admin wing, which is full of mist and some dead bodies. Of course we don't get to see what killed them what kind of show do you think this is. Anyway they draw lots to go get the radio. Hero Mom gets picked and Dude volunteers to go with her. They make it down there without incident, and I'm not sure whether they mist got in because the window was broken or just left open but if it was left open then I hope they closed it.

Anyway, Dude starts going through regular channels and then suddenly starts calling a specific organization out and identifies himself as "Shadow 4-1." Hero Mom get ssuspicious and then sees that Dude's got a gun. Dude won't answer her and says they can't take the radio back. A fight breaks out where Hero Mom ends up braining the dude with a fire extinguisher and shooting him, all because he couldn't come up with a lie that he read about some stuff on the Internet and either has a carry license or is that kind of gun nut.

Okay the guy's obviously some kind of secret government project observer or something, but what? They send in plainclothes people with no alibi? There was no plan at all if someone found them being weird? Oh it turned out he had three buddies in the mall and they're all strangers in this small town and no one had a plan?
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grahams_xwing
Location: Mansfield, UK

Re: TV shows are cool

Postby grahams_xwing » Fri Jul 14, 2017 9:17 am

I have just stumbled apon iZombie. It's a couple of years old at this point and I'm only at the start of the first of 3 seasons but so far it's a great watch. Pretty self contained little plots. Funny script. Attractive Zombie female lead in Rose McIver. Really enjoying it.

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