TV shows are cool

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Thomas

Re: TV shows are cool

Postby Thomas » Sun Feb 19, 2017 8:37 pm

The French are proud of their language's history as the diplomatic language. I know people in the UK have been speculating as to whether France might try and push their language again with the EU in the future.

EDIT: I was reading up on this article as to French's use in the UN and it pointed out there are more native Portuguese speakers than French speakers! Which does make sense when you think about it, but kind of blew me over to realise.
http://www.economist.com/blogs/johnson/ ... -diplomacy
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Andrew

Re: TV shows are cool

Postby Andrew » Mon Feb 20, 2017 5:29 am

4th Dimension wrote:Second episode of The Expanse.

HEEEEEEELLLLL YEEEEEEAAAAAHHHH!!
A proper hard (for TV) SF space battle, with railgun flechetes flying everywhere and not stopping for anything.

Now Miller, that guy sure was a monster and did deserve to die. Bit could you have waited just a bit until we could get info out of him about his employers. You know the real bad guys orchestrating this.

I haven't seen Episode 4 yet, but Episode 3 does go a ways to explaining Miller's motivation and reasoning. I think it's pretty sound.

And yes, how good was that space battle??! Steve doesn't agree because he's comparing it to the space battle in the novel (which, I agree, is a written a lot better) but that rail gun scene was as good a space battle as I've seen on any space opera TV show in recent time.

And I'm glad someone else agrees with me on Bobbie. I am not sold on her but I hope she gets better because she is a cool character in the novels.
Steve C

Re: TV shows are cool

Postby Steve C » Mon Feb 20, 2017 6:41 am

Like I said, that space battle was great on it's own merits. It was absolutely the best spaceship battle I've seen on screen in years (including the Star Wars movies). It is just that you know what would have been better than the best 1 vs 1 space battle ever on screen? The best 1 vs 2 space battle ever shown on screen.

Season 1 of The Expanse was awesome. I kept seeing changes from the books and kept thinking "Yeah I see where they are going with that and that works! That's a straight up improvement!" This second season just isn't doing that though. I know why they changed Bobby, (to create an arc for the character to change over) but it doesn't work. It takes away more than it gains. Like whoever in the writers room said, "I think one enemy ship is plenty awesome. We don't need two." THAT person needs to be thrown out an airlock.

However that's the ONLY part of season 2 I'm not enjoying. The scenes that have perfect opportunities squandered. "The Mormons are going to be pissed!" would have had more impact at in the final scene of the 3rd eps. So why waste it in the first act of the 4th eps? It's just stuff like that that is bothering me. The show is awesome and I give it 10/10! (Except I see the missteps of what could do and I'm forced to give it 10/13 instead.)

Princess Leia says, "I love you."
<Han Solo is frozen in carbonite>
<Han Solo is defrosted by Leia in Jabba the Hut's cell>
Han Solo replies, "I know."
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Andrew

Re: TV shows are cool

Postby Andrew » Mon Feb 20, 2017 1:56 pm

Haha yes, you are right, a 2 v 1 space battle would be at least twice as good as a 1 v 1 space battle. I am not sure if a writer actually suggested they scale it back to 1 ship though. I would find it much more plausible that budget constraints would have dictated just 1 ship. I mean, the battle they did show would have eaten a fair chunk of the visuals and effect budget for the entire season, I reckon.

Yeah changing Bobbie makes sense and doesn't make sense at the same time. It makes sense because of what we know she is going to go through and how it changes her. It doesn't make sense between in the novel, she goes through the same experience and changes all the same. I guess my thing is that she doesn't to start of as this chest-thumping, fist pumping, arm-wrestling, hot-headed, shoot first ask questions later, personality that the show has lumped her with. She changes either way. But the Bobbie we know is introspective, considerate and thoughtful, while the Bobbie we are being presented with is rash yet seemingly adept at political maneuvering.

Anyway enough on Bobbie. I am still hopeful that they can fix her in the next few episodes.

I still haven't seen episode 4, but didn't Miller say the "Mormons will be pissed" line at the end of episode 3? I'm sure I heard it, unless what I heard was the preview for episode 4.
Steve C

Re: TV shows are cool

Postby Steve C » Mon Feb 20, 2017 2:14 pm

Andrew wrote:I would find it much more plausible that budget constraints would have dictated just 1 ship. I mean, the battle they did show would have eaten a fair chunk of the visuals and effect budget for the entire season, I reckon.

That's the only reason I can think of that makes any sense. Except that it still doesn't make sense when I think about how it could be done. Like they could have had a sneak attack plan that took out a ship really early on with a torpedo. Breaking off cargo ship could have been flotsam junk that (surprise!) was really torpedoes tumbling through space in FedEx containers. They splash the only ship defending the station fast and easy, (keeping special effect costs down) exactly like the heroes planned except that (surprise!) it wasn't the only ship guarding the station and cue awesome battle that we got.

I still haven't seen episode 4, but didn't Miller say the "Mormons will be pissed" line at the end of episode 3? I'm sure I heard it, unless what I heard was the preview for episode 4.

Nope. Must have been a preview. Miller doesn't even say it. Nor does Fred (it should have been Fred.) It's Naomi that says it wastes it.
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4th Dimension

Re: TV shows are cool

Postby 4th Dimension » Tue Feb 21, 2017 7:14 am

I know French is now still one of the languages of diplomacy, but the show is set 300 years from now and French is for some reason the official language next to English. The official languages are languages that the majority of population should be able to speak, and the French simply doesn't have the same coverage as let's say Spanish. Now that I think about it it is sort of the unofficial lingua franca in a big part of Africa, but that is because those parts used to be French colonies.

As for the historical lingua franca, it's hardly suprising it was based of latin and not on probably germanic tongue of the Franks. The Franks ruled a huge chunk of what used to be Western Roman Empire + Germany and other territories, so it's not surprising that the communication language of their subjects was the one that they have been using as common tongue for centuries by this point and was based on Latin.
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Thomas

Re: TV shows are cool

Postby Thomas » Tue Feb 21, 2017 8:56 am

The lingua franca was some Italian, not Latin and it was Mediterranean based not Europe based. I meant the phrase 'Lingua Franca' was Latin. I can't remember if the Holy Roman Empire covered Italy in the 11th century though.

But you're right French being the second UN language is controversial now. It would be hard to see it lasting hundreds if years into the future
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4th Dimension

Re: TV shows are cool

Postby 4th Dimension » Tue Feb 21, 2017 1:50 pm

Latin is the root of the Romance languages, with the languages of today being a mix of their regional variant of Latin (the one more suited to the local sounds and syntax) and the language of the invading tribes. Back when the Franks were in control of Europe (from about 8th century I would guess, by late 700s they were angling to replace the Eastern Romans as Pope's protectors since a woman was on the throne of Constantinople (among other things)) the languages of the locals was probably considerably closer to Latin than it was to today's languages. I don't know what it excatly refered to so it might also refer to the common language among Itallians since their mother tongues can differ significantly and today's "Itallian" language is actually a lingua franca used so that a Sicilian and a Venetian can communicate easily.

* checks wikipedia *

Ahh, so it only originally applied to language of commerce in the Med. Oh, in that case it's perfectly understandable that Venetian and North Itallian dialects came to dominate it given how proficient they were at trade. As for why it was called Frank, well as you guessed HRE did cover that area. It would be quite some time until the HRE got ejected from northern Italy. Basically I think it took the fragmentation of HRE to get them to release their hold on it. Hell the Austrians were one of the major foes of the Italians during their unification wars since they still held significant parts of Norhtern Itally.
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Thomas

Re: TV shows are cool

Postby Thomas » Tue Feb 21, 2017 5:27 pm

Yeah, I was just amused that the phrase which translates almost to "Language of France" and has been used to refer to the French language for several centuries, actually comes from an Italian language.
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4th Dimension

Re: TV shows are cool

Postby 4th Dimension » Thu Feb 23, 2017 3:45 pm

The Expanse episode 5:
....
Well that was something.
On one hand in the end it turned out well, but on the other Holden's decision to stop chasing Eros based on the info he had at that time was fishy as hell. He was trading messy but certain destruction of Eros and his crew with potential clean solution advocated and based on the experiences of a frankly disturbed man that is obssessed with a girl he never met.
Steve C

Re: TV shows are cool

Postby Steve C » Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:19 pm

Yeah but you don't need a terrific argument to reconsider the horrible torturous death you are currently inflicting upon yourself. Hail Mary is good enough in that case.

BTW great episode too.
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4th Dimension

Re: TV shows are cool

Postby 4th Dimension » Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:27 pm

Ehhh. What is the death of his crew compared to the probable annihilation of the entire Earth and probably most of it's population which means the death toll will be in tens of billions. And the knowledge that you will survive it with full knowledge that your direct choice has caused this. Also do we really want the protomolecule to get it's hands on all that bio matter and power sources on Earth?

The problem I guess is that from what he knew at the time the missile strike was much more likely to work than Miller's plan. It's just that the decision was a tiny bit too meta.
Steve C

Re: TV shows are cool

Postby Steve C » Fri Feb 24, 2017 12:36 am

I straight up disagree. Firing missiles at a small asteroid is a plan that has been examined in detail in the real world for decades. It is a terrible plan that has a near zero chance of working. Things that are blown up in space do not stop existing. It's pure desperation. The only thing it has going for it is that it is better than nothing. In the show it is not a small asteroid. It's Eros. Eros is a huge asteroid. Except it's not that either. Really it's an alien spacecraft with the ability to dodge. An alien that thinks gravity is not a constant and that inertia is optional. The missiles have a nanosecond to hit at those speeds and if they miss they cannot turn around. If by some crazy fluke they do manage to all hit perfectly, the protomolecule that feeds off radiation will be spread across the solar system. Even one small infection somewhere starts it all again. Plan A with the Nauvoo was a solid plan. Plan B wasn't worth dying for.

The characters know all this. Miller's plan was not good. It was still better than what was on the table.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: TV shows are cool

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Fri Feb 24, 2017 1:07 am

Steve C wrote:Firing missiles at a small asteroid is a plan that has been examined in detail in the real world for decades. It is a terrible plan that has a near zero chance of working.


Thats not true.Depending on the distance of the object,firing a missile at it can have a huge impact on its trajectory.

Steve C wrote:Things that are blown up in space do not stop existing.


True,but many small objects are less deadly to a planet than a single big object.First,many small objects have a bigger surface,thus more mass will burn during atmospheric entry.Second,many small objects impacting at different times and different places will mean less energy released at a single point,which leads to less powerful quakes,less tsunamis,less dirt in the atmosphere,etc.
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4th Dimension

Re: TV shows are cool

Postby 4th Dimension » Fri Feb 24, 2017 7:10 am

Oh I agree that the missiles plan wasn't exactly brilliant or suitable. IRL it would have simply created a cloud of protomolecule laced debris that would still hit Earth, and since the real danger is not so much the asteroid but the protomolecule in it (which feeds on energy and casually ignores the rules of physics so I'm not certain even nuclear fire would be able to purge/break it up) if any of those fragments hit Earth it would be over.

@Demian
As I said the real danger with Eros is not so much the asteroid itself as the frankly extra solar technology indistinguishable from magic molecule that has infected and assimilated Eros and everything in it. If even a single piece of eros with the molecule gets to Earth it's over for Earth. The assimilation might take time, but it's unlikely to be stopped.

------

Actually even hitting Eros with Nauvoo would have likely produced loads of debris. The majority would have fallen into the Sun, hopefully, but there would be enough on debris scattered all over the Sola System to start infections elsewhere.
Now had the plan been to TUG Eros into deorbit, that would have been another thing.

Given all that and since the crew of Rossie and Tychoo don't really comment on the problem of Eros breaking up, and they should considering they know what the molecule is capable of, I trusted that in that universe the missile plan had some chance of working.
Ninety-Three

Re: TV shows are cool

Postby Ninety-Three » Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:50 pm

Daemian Lucifer wrote:
Steve C wrote:Firing missiles at a small asteroid is a plan that has been examined in detail in the real world for decades. It is a terrible plan that has a near zero chance of working.


Thats not true.Depending on the distance of the object,firing a missile at it can have a huge impact on its trajectory.

Steve C wrote:Things that are blown up in space do not stop existing.


True,but many small objects are less deadly to a planet than a single big object.First,many small objects have a bigger surface,thus more mass will burn during atmospheric entry.Second,many small objects impacting at different times and different places will mean less energy released at a single point,which leads to less powerful quakes,less tsunamis,less dirt in the atmosphere,etc.


Narratorway wrote:Christ DL, are you ever not 'that guy'?
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: TV shows are cool

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Fri Feb 24, 2017 10:10 pm

Ninety-Three wrote:
Narratorway wrote:Christ DL, are you ever not 'that guy'?


Coming from the two of you,thats actually a compliment.
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Sudanna

Re: TV shows are cool

Postby Sudanna » Fri Feb 24, 2017 11:14 pm

is this not a forum for that guys? i was under the impression that i had joined a support group.
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4th Dimension

Re: TV shows are cool

Postby 4th Dimension » Thu Mar 02, 2017 10:27 pm

The Expanse episode 6:

Okay nice speech there Avirsala, but I think you are making it to the wrong person. On the other hand it just might cause him to remember that during the last week it wasn't Mars or the OPA that presented the greatest threat to the very EXISTENCE of the LIFE on Earth, but something caused by the science experiment Mao directly ordered and financed.

Also is it me or did those UN troopers not look like they are assaulting the MCR position but running with their tails between their legs from something and exchanging fire with it. Their formation was REALLY off and broken.
Which means this is another one of Mao's attempts to start shit with Mars.

BTW did they explain it in the books WHY did Mars and UN put an agricultural colony on Ganymede?!? It's really far from the Sun, and Mars certainly has space on the planet itself to grow crops, so why put it so far out?!?
Steve C

Re: TV shows are cool

Postby Steve C » Fri Mar 03, 2017 12:06 am

4th Dimension wrote:BTW did they explain it in the books WHY did Mars and UN put an agricultural colony on Ganymede?!? It's really far from the Sun, and Mars certainly has space on the planet itself to grow crops, so why put it so far out?!?

Ganymede is an agricultural colony precisely because it is so far away from the Sun. It services the food needs of Jupiter's and Saturn's moons along with the belt. Ganymede is one of the most important places in the solar system. It is 1)the largest moon in the solar system, 2)the only moon with it's own magnetic field, (super important for protection from radiation) 3)has gravity comparable to Luna, 4)has a slight atmosphere and 5)has water on it. If the human race is ever able to colonize the solar system, Ganymede is around #4 or #5 on the list of best places to colonize. It is significantly better than Mercury. In The Expanse universe, Ganymede is the breadbasket of the belt and outer solar system. It's so important that both Mars and Earth share custody.

I'm disappointed in this week's eps as a book reader. It was significantly less awesome than it could have and should have been. I'm just hoping that we get to see more of what happened a little later. There's a spot in the narrative to rehash it so I'm crossing my fingers. It was a waste to devoted so much time to the novella "Drive". It's just a cute little story and not particularly important.
Ninety-Three

Re: TV shows are cool

Postby Ninety-Three » Fri Mar 03, 2017 2:24 am

I keep hearing good things so I'm thinking about reading, how similar is the show The Expanse to the books? I tried the show and bounced off it because it seemed to live in an uncanny valley of scifi hardness, does the book do any better? Some of what bothered me were clearly Hollywood limitations (the sets are way too spacious, Ceres is clearly shot in 1 G, the space battles are practically Star Wars) and some of it is just uncaught sloppiness from the scriptwriter (describing ships in relative distance rather than relative velocity, people casually taking showers when water is "more precious than gold"), but I also took issue with what seems to be a core premise.

Why is water so precious in The Expanse? These people have airtight environments and gravity, we can achieve perfect water reclamation with twentieth-century technology. The only water they lose should be a tiny bit of atmosphere from operating airlocks. Even if we grant that they're somehow losing a lot of water this way, their solution appears to be water rationing which wouldn't help.
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4th Dimension

Re: TV shows are cool

Postby 4th Dimension » Fri Mar 03, 2017 7:45 am

This episode it basically the unwind episode. It's closing the previous conflict and opening the new one. Considering that the books were loosely based on on a RPG campaign this was akin to the party (the crew or Roscinante) coming back to Tychoo station to hand in the quest, do some upgrading and pick up new quests of their own.
I kind of liked the Epstein drive part, but that does depend on it being tied somehow to the later events. There are really two lines of events I can think of that could justify showing us Epestein's first flight. In the first one the intent behind showing us is to hammer home the idea that this episode tries to show, that you can not put the genie back into the bottle and despite the best intentions of the inventors inventions will inevitably be used for war. In this case Epstein's widow did not stay on Mars and help Mars grow but moved back to Earth and produced "her" drive there. That is why the EARTH missile drives were made by Epsein Co. Mars had to win it's freedom by a lot of blood and dying rather than economic superiority. Or she stayed on Mars and still a century later her Martian company is producing drives for UN nukes ANYWAY.
The second line is that given the acceleration numbers and the fact that he says with his levels of fuel efficiency the drive could stay lit for weeks, it's quite likely that his spacecraft was the first manned (well corpsed) to leave the Solar system at a LOT of speed. Which is probably what notified the whoever sent the protomolecule that there is a sentient space faring species around this particular star.
Ganymede: The thought did occur to me that it's there to supply the belt and the outer colonies with food, but the way they were talking about it when Gunny first got her assigment I got the impression it was actually feeding Mars and Mars was moving to protect it's source of food. Which would be strategically smart (and further showed how out of touch were her prejudices making her when she complained about the assigment) but made no sense world building vise. If it's not feeding Mars but outer planets and the belt this just means not only were Mars and UN hit, which will make them blame each other, OPA is about to go ballistic if their food supply was just cut.

@Ninety-three: I haven't read the books so I can not help you but the show, worldbuilding wise is pretty true to the books, well when you eliminate obvious technical limitations of shooting something in 1G that is supposed to show action in 0,3Gs. As such I too never really liked how they portrayed Ceres, what with RUNNING after perps in significantly less than a 1 G gravity, but was able to suspend my disbelief in that case since the rest of it was hard as god damned steel when compared to practically 99,99% of "SF" that I have seen. The water issue: Since I like the show I could make up justifications for it (like Ceres and outer colonies being a bit on the run down side meaning that the sealing of the environment is not perfect and their life support is not stellar (after all a key part of the lore is that the belters have evolved to be able to survive with considerably less oxygen than Terran humans) and as such water is needed to be water and to be turned into fuel and oxygen) but I'll just say that it is silly, but it presents a nice and simple thing to have a conflict over further pushing the point of just how alien space is.
I never found space battles to be Star Wars like in the sligtless. Sure the graphical presentation is a bit over the top what with railgun flechettes having tracers and ships often being a bit too close to one another but that is simply a limitation of having to show a fight and not have it a boring recount of two dots in the sky slugging it out. The weapons are realistic, probably railgun accelerated darts that go trough basically everything and anything since they are fired at tremendous speeds and ships are lightly armored and rely on manouvering to not get destroyed. The fights are dominated by missiles on long range and "guns" are really only effective at shorter ranges. And the little details such as Donnager vibrating when it's firing and the Martian who served on board of warships being able to figure out it's launching missile killers it a nice detail. Speed/range issue, I think we had this discussion before but for the purposes of space combat and being able to hit your target BOTH are imprtant. The RELATIVE speed determines if your shots can possibly overtake the enemy, but the range determines if your missiles will have enough powered range to not attack balistically and be easily dodged. The range also determines how much time will pass between the shot being fired and arriving at target. So you could have matching speed BUT your fire could be completely ineffective due to range because due the time delay you can not properly judge where the maneuvering target will be when your attack arrives.
Steve C

Re: TV shows are cool

Postby Steve C » Fri Mar 03, 2017 8:15 am

The books did some things better and the show does some other things better. They have their strong points.

As for causally taking a shower, well the important thing there was it wasn't his 'hole' and wasn't his water. Detective Miller is the type of guy who showers in someone else's house when they aren't there just because he can. He's stealing. Water is more precious than gold both because of water being valuable and gold being devalued (which is better explained in the book.) In the belt, it's a different economy. Gold, platinum and other heavy metals are plentiful compared to water. The expensive stuff are things like a book made with real paper. A real wooden desk. A piece of jewelry made out of amber. Cheese made from milk from cows.

Water is important because water is not only used to drink and for showers. It's air. It's used for maneuvering thrusters on modern ships and for rocket fuel on old ones. The main drives of ships cannot be turned on near anything else or they vaporize it. The "Knight" shuttle in the first couple of eps was powered by ejected steam. Ceres is also the *supplier* of water for all the ships that comes to it. Ice haulers to Ceres are a kilometer long. That's gives an idea much raw matter was lost. That ice was going to go to the station and be distributed by Ceres rather than consumed by it. That cargo was supposed to supply thousands of ships. If there is a water shortage Ceres cannot afford to give out all the water that every ship wants. Every ship needs it in an absolute sense or they die. Hence rationing.

I really like the space battles. The sets are great. I love them and don't think they are too big at all. They are exceptionally well done. Everything is in 1G though you are right there. They don't even try to unless it is 0G. The book describes distances in time @ G (Eg: 5 days at 0.3G) rather than distance or relative velocity. Basically I simply disagree with you.

I do recommend both the book and show without reservation. I'm not sure though for you specifically given what you've already said. Maybe you'd enjoy the books because they do a good job explaining why things are the way they are. IDK? I'm hesitant. Honestly you are finding faults because you aren't into it and stuff that is being explained isn't holding your attention. Something like the spaciousness of stations is better explained in the books (ie: tiny spaces with thousands of people in them make people go insane) but the water stuff was fully explained in the show. Key point is that you aren't into it. Might be better to give it a miss.
Steve C

Re: TV shows are cool

Postby Steve C » Fri Mar 03, 2017 8:41 am

4th Dimension wrote:The second line is that given the acceleration numbers and the fact that he says with his levels of fuel efficiency the drive could stay lit for weeks, it's quite likely that his spacecraft was the first manned (well corpsed) to leave the Solar system at a LOT of speed. Which is probably what notified the whoever sent the protomolecule that there is a sentient space faring species around this particular star.
Ganymede: The thought did occur to me that it's there to supply the belt and the outer colonies with food, but the way they were talking about it when Gunny first got her assigment I got the impression it was actually feeding Mars and Mars was moving to protect it's source of food. Which would be strategically smart (and further showed how out of touch were her prejudices making her when she complained about the assigment) but made no sense world building vise. If it's not feeding Mars but outer planets and the belt this just means not only were Mars and UN hit, which will make them blame each other, OPA is about to go ballistic if their food supply was just cut.

Except the part about the ship being the first to truly leave the solar system (it was) the rest of this quoted part is not correct. The protomolecule source was explained back in season 1. It was supposed to hit Earth millions of years ago when Earth only life was bacteria. Instead Phebe was caught by Saturn's gravity. For the rest, there is an important distinction that must be made first. The belt exists. The Belt does not. The belt is made up of Earth corporations and Mars corporations. There are no stations belonging to the belt, only in it. Tycho is the 'jewel of the belt' and it is an Earth corp. Ceres is an Earth station run by Star Helix corp out of Earth. Mars controls moons like Pellas. Neither Mars nor Earth recognizes the Belt as anything other than something that belongs to them.

Or to put it another way, the belt is America in the 1700s: taxed, owned, controlled and governed by England and France. If England or France makes a move in the colonies then the other one is going to move to counter. And Ganymede is about to make the cost of tea skyrocket...

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