TV shows are cool

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Ninety-Three

Re: TV shows are cool

Postby Ninety-Three » Fri Mar 03, 2017 2:52 pm

4th Dimension wrote:Speed/range issue, I think we had this discussion before but for the purposes of space combat.


No, the speed/distance thing I was talking about is when the lifeboat is sending a distress signal and another ship picks it up. They ask how far away the ship is, and someone in answers in kilometers. Based solely on this information, they're able to tell how long it will take to rendezvous as though two random spaceships don't have significant relative velocity.

Steve C wrote:As for causally taking a shower, well the important thing there was it wasn't his 'hole' and wasn't his water. Detective Miller is the type of guy who showers in someone else's house when they aren't there just because he can. He's stealing.


If we grant that they somehow don't have perfect water recycling (as implied by the fact that taking a shower depletes the water ration), then why did someone build a normal Earth shower? Those things are monstrously wasteful of water and suites should be set up to take astronaut showers with damp towels.

Steve C wrote:Water is important because water is not only used to drink and for showers. It's air. It's used for maneuvering thrusters on modern ships and for rocket fuel on old ones.

Ninety-Three wrote:their solution appears to be water rationing which wouldn't help.

Either all the water humans consume is perfectly recycled in which case the policy of water rationing makes no sense, or it's not in which case their technology makes no sense because we can do that today.

Steve C wrote:The sets are great. I love them and don't think they are too big at all. They are exceptionally well done.

To clarify, they're too big from an engineering plausibility perspective, not an aesthetic one. Ships go faster if they weigh less, they weigh less if you make them smaller, so why are the hallways so wide? Because it looks nice and it's difficult to shoot a TV show in cramped environments, which is why I listed it as a Hollywood limitation.

Steve C wrote:Honestly you are finding faults because you aren't into it and stuff that is being explained isn't holding your attention.

Really, you can read my mind? What number am I thinking of?

Don't be a presumptuous dick, I'm finding faults because I kept hearing the show praised for "hard as god damned steel" scifi and there were faults in it.
Steve C

Re: TV shows are cool

Postby Steve C » Fri Mar 03, 2017 10:20 pm

Ninety-Three wrote:
Steve C wrote:Water is important because water is not only used to drink and for showers. It's air. It's used for maneuvering thrusters on modern ships and for rocket fuel on old ones.

Ninety-Three wrote:their solution appears to be water rationing which wouldn't help.

Either all the water humans consume is perfectly recycled in which case the policy of water rationing makes no sense, or it's not in which case their technology makes no sense because we can do that today.


You quoted me but... ???? Let me repeat:

The water is ejected into space in quantities so vast that ships the size of modern oil super tankers have to make continuous round trips. This is on purpose and by design but not for biological purposes. Because it is used for so many things, water is a valuable commodity regardless of how it is used. I'll pull a number out of my ass and say it costs $1000 a liter. The person using the shower is buying what comes out of the shower head, and selling it back again at almost the same price to the reclamation plant at the other end of the drain. If something like a shower drain reclaims 99.9% of the water that came out of the shower head then every liter of water they use is costing $1. Even if they get that down from a standard shower today (using 65L) to something like 10L, that shower is still costing them $10 in a recycling system with 99.9% efficiency. And they probably need a floating credit of $10000 somewhere too. The closed system of Ceres isn't losing water to space by people drinking water and having showers. The millions of people living inside Ceres are being affected especially in relation to each other and in relation to their bank account. If an individual drinks a glass a water then yes that water continues to exist in the aggregate of the environmental systems. From the perspective of an individual, the water was paid for, consumed and gone.

Water rationing means that stuff that ejects water into space is restricted. Something like a shuttle, or construction equipment can't be operated. Which means the equivalent of every taxi driver and bricklayer has no work to go to. It's the oil crisis of the 1970s. It's gasoline rationing in a universe where you drink gasoline to live. It disproportionally affects the poor while the rich figure out ways to profit from it. Someone poor with a 95% efficient shower (or the 99.9% one) is not losing that water to space. Someone else on Ceres is reclaiming it. Still sucks for you. An individual is rationed so that it's harder to sell it away on the blackmarket.

To clarify, they're too big from an engineering plausibility perspective, not an aesthetic one. Ships go faster if they weigh less, they weigh less if you make them smaller, so why are the hallways so wide? Because it looks nice and it's difficult to shoot a TV show in cramped environments, which is why I listed it as a Hollywood limitation.

Narrow hallways are needed in something built lengthwise like a submarine. That's not how the ships are designed. They are built vertically, not horizontally. The ships are flying office buildings and described as such. The engines are in the basement and fire downwards. Ships are built this way so that the floor is down when the ship is under thrust. Like an office building a ship can be big and open in the center or filled with tiny cubicles.

Steve C wrote:Honestly you are finding faults because you aren't into it and stuff that is being explained isn't holding your attention.

Really, you can read my mind? What number am I thinking of?
Don't be a presumptuous dick, I'm finding faults because I kept hearing the show praised for "hard as god damned steel" scifi and there were faults in it.

I was attempting to be diplomatic in how I phrased that. I failed. I'll try to phrase it more plainly: You are making incorrect assumptions of how the hard sci-fi should work. How it works and why it works that way is explained in the show. It is better explained in the books but it's definitely in the show. (I watched the show first and then read the books after the first season and I understood it via the show.) It's not put front stage. It is in there for the audience that cares about that sort of and allowed to fade into the background the audience that doesn't. You didn't notice it for whatever reason. That doesn't mean it's not there or that the explanations are faulty.

If you enjoyed the show the first time I'd say rewatch and look for all background world building detail and explanations. Instead, give the show a miss.
Last edited by Steve C on Fri Mar 03, 2017 10:28 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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4th Dimension

Re: TV shows are cool

Postby 4th Dimension » Fri Mar 03, 2017 10:24 pm

Well distance in the end will be what determines the time it takes for them to meet once the relative velocity is canceled. But such infor should be called as speed vector and position not only one or other.

As for the shower, if I remember correctly the shower is not in Miller's apartment but in the apartment of Julie in the fancy part of the Ceres. As such it's there to show how the governing body (essentially bunch of corps) like to provide to the rich the creature comforts that are utterly wasteful while the belters are thirsty. In the end the losses via showers are probably not that great considering that there are not many of them since they are limited to the fancy parts of Ceres.

No matter how much the writers try to do something realistically you will in the end run up to the limitation of our filming methods which forces them to use MUCH wider spaces simply so cameras can fit in them. This is one of the limitation/breaks from realism, I can ignore because it's not borne from the creators not caring but from the limitations of technology and methodology. And as such once you account for the limitations of filming in 1 G things that are happening in low gravity or freefall Expanse is pretty damn hard. At least I don't know of any show harder than it. Do you?
Ninety-Three

Re: TV shows are cool

Postby Ninety-Three » Fri Mar 03, 2017 11:36 pm

Steve C wrote:Water


The fact that water is used for maneuvering thrusters and fuel? Never stated in the show. Hell, the show doesn't even tell us what water rationing is (and the dialogue keeps saying that it results in people dying, we are to assume of thirst).

Twelve pages back in the thread I complained about the space battle in CQB, you said it didn't happen that way, I linked the scene in question to say yes it did, and you admitted you were recalling from the book. I'm pretty sure that's what's happening here again, and it's fucking miserable to argue with someone who keeps arguing based on information that isn't part of what I'm discussing, so I quit.
Steve C

Re: TV shows are cool

Postby Steve C » Fri Mar 03, 2017 11:55 pm

Really, you can read my mind? What number am I thinking of?
Ninety-Three

Re: TV shows are cool

Postby Ninety-Three » Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:40 am

As though there's no difference between "I'm pretty sure you're arguing with facts from the book" and telling someone what is or is not holding their attention.

And if my "pretty sure" is wrong, please prove it by directing me to the part of the show where they explain water rationing or the thrust-related uses of water.
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4th Dimension

Re: TV shows are cool

Postby 4th Dimension » Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:34 pm

I forgot to comment on the new episode of the Expanse.

Nice to see that cooler heads are prevailing on Mars which is nice after all the toxic chest pumping we were exposed while following miss future likely war criminal. That is less likely now hopefully after she has seen what "war" she was so eager for really means, senseless deaths of your comrades for often nothing and no guarantee of victory. What is less nice is that I don't think it was ever established in the show what exactly do those Martian interrogation drugs do. I think they enhance the perceptions allowing the interogator to become the human lie detector and monitor the telltales of the person being interrogated. Given that, while it's nice that they are trying to get the correct story out that will stop the war, it's less good that they are burying her report about the agri drone and the 7th "UN" trooper. They should know she could not have lied and that something did happen. Fortunately it seems the higher officer is interested.

On the Tychoo Station side I have sort of forgot the details concering the big OPA leader from the last season. How deeply was he involved with the disappearance of Julie Mao and the conspiracy in general. I seem to remember him stalling and even trying to get Miller killed back on Ceres and by the end of it all he seemed like the de facto leader/ruler of Ceres with tacit cooperation from the "cops". Now given also that I am currently reading/listening to the first book and now know that the OPA has been seemingly taking over the turf from the organized crime for a month before the nuking of Cant happened, this does not inspire me with confidence about the big OPA leader.
Also his dismissal of the missiles in my mind is not him trying to defuse the situation but undermining Fred Johnson and his plans to use the missiles as a bargaining chip which might produce a peaceful solution to the Belter problems
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4th Dimension

Re: TV shows are cool

Postby 4th Dimension » Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:18 am

The Expanse:
Due to some fucked up history from my region, the spacing of inners did not come as much of a surprise (if you want to murder a large group of civilians you don't want them to know what will happen to them. So what you do is lie to them and promise you are deporting them so they willingly get onto the death trucks. Once they are on and in small controllable groups... you imagine it... shooting/stabbing tossing into pits/rivers. Like lambs to slaughter. We humans can truly be fucked up at times.). The moment the guy started gushing about how nice the ship was I was suspicious and when when the Belter stopped the doctor from getting on because he is a Belter and this is only for the Inners it pretty much confirmed my suspicions.

I wonder what is going on with Amos. I even briefly wondered if he went through with the procedure... or it was already done to him.

I do wonder how is Fred still in charge on Tycho after the whole Navoo incident that is probably going to cost the company a LOT. I get it that since Tychoo practically singlehandedly built the Belt the company is mostly staffed by the Belters and they want Fred as their boss, but still...
Steve C

Re: TV shows are cool

Postby Steve C » Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:00 am

Yeah I had that figured out soon as it was said. It wasn't in the book either. Actually it was. It was part of a report characters listened to. It wasn't part of the actual story. I had forgotten about it.
I do wonder how is Fred still in charge on Tycho after the whole Navoo incident that is probably going to cost the company a LOT.

It's funny you should say given the rest of what you wrote. Tycho Corp tells Fred he is fired. He says no. What then?
The board of directors decide to hire a new manager that is friendly towards Earth for Tycho Station. All the new hire has to do is go to the station and remove Fred from the station while telling the Belter workforce they answer to Earth now. How many resumes will be submitted for that job?

Power and control matter a great deal more than law and authority.
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4th Dimension

Re: TV shows are cool

Postby 4th Dimension » Fri Mar 17, 2017 4:03 pm

Oh I get that. The problem is that he has been behaving a bit too much like he is the King of Tycho Station. Sure it would be a bitch to remove him but it comes a point where the costs of living with Fred (and covering for his fuckup with Navu) starts to outweight the advantages of cutting their support of him and declaring him a pirate. Especially since the LDS is now breathing down their necks AND they don't have the next contract lined up.
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Andrew

Re: TV shows are cool

Postby Andrew » Sat Mar 18, 2017 1:35 pm

I'm a little behind you guys. Only just managed to watch episodes 5 and 6 tonight.

Still very impressed with how the series is bringing out the best parts of the novels. One thing I don't understand though is why they had Julie and Miller kiss at the end of episode 5. I'm quite certain that didn't happen in the novel and I don't understand why it needed to happen here.

I get that from Miller's point of view it's a manifestation of this pseudo unrequited love he's been carrying around and I get that Julie is probably quite scared but none of that had to manifest in a kiss, did it? The kiss to me was about comfort and shared fears and all of that, except it was an intimate kiss that (on the lips and everything!!) you'd expect to see between partners, not complete strangers. The type of comfort they were seeking from each other would, surely, have been much better conveyed by way of a hug (or, to be more accurate, the two of them holding each other) in my opinion. And as I type this I seem to recall that in the novel Miller kissed the back of Julie's hand, or something. Again, much better than an intimate kiss with absolutely zero foundation.

Episode 6 was really fun. More needless drama between Alex and Amos and I still don't get why except that they may have been struggling to fill their 42 minutes of episode? The Roci crew are tight knit - they are not some pissant bunch of miscreants who are only together because it's convenient for them at this point in time.

Ending was really cool though. Would have love to have seen the creature rip into the soldiers but budgets, I suppose... Hopefully the arc around Bobbie starts to pick up now.
Steve C

Re: TV shows are cool

Postby Steve C » Sat Mar 18, 2017 5:49 pm

You are correct that kiss wasn't in the book. It wasn't in the script either. It was an ad-lib by the actors. They just kind of went with it because it felt right. Personally I'm not sure on it being right or not either way. There's good reason for both arguments.

That said, they are not quite strangers. The protomolecule has infected Miller by that point. Julie IS the heart of the protomolecule. She has direct access to his mind. They are becoming the same entity in that scene. Also SPOILER WITHIN THE SPOILER OF SOMETHING THE AUTHORS CONFIRMED BUT PURPOSELY MADE IT SUBTLE... There is some time shenanigans going on. You know those hallucinations Miller saw of Julie? They weren't hallucinations. That was the protomolecule projecting itself backwards through time. Julie also hallucinated Miller right before she 'died' when she never met him. Protomolecule is crazy yo.

As for Amos, he is broken. A seriously broken human being. That scene where he pushed that kid's mother REALLY got to him. He knows he is broken. He knows he cannot process things correctly. He sees he made a mistake like that all he can do is get himself out of the situation so he doesn't repeat it. Basically the show was setting some stuff up that I think will be explained shortly.
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4th Dimension

Re: TV shows are cool

Postby 4th Dimension » Sat Mar 18, 2017 11:35 pm

Wasn't Miller infected when he pulled off his helmet? I didn't know the proto molecule could work that quickly.
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Thomas

Re: TV shows are cool

Postby Thomas » Sun Mar 19, 2017 8:59 am

Maybe make a thread for The Expanse? It would save you discussing the book and the show across two threads too
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4th Dimension

Re: TV shows are cool

Postby 4th Dimension » Sun Mar 19, 2017 11:36 am

Yeah, I was thinking about that. My only worry is that there won't be enough posts/interest to justify it.
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Ringwraith

Re: TV shows are cool

Postby Ringwraith » Sun Mar 19, 2017 12:13 pm

I know I can't contribute because as the series is currently airing a season, it's not on Netflix for non-Americans yet.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: TV shows are cool

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Thu Mar 23, 2017 4:35 am

If you still dont know whether to watch legion,heres a short exchange from the last episode:
- Youre...british?
- Like I said:Im your rational mind.
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Andrew

Re: TV shows are cool

Postby Andrew » Fri Mar 24, 2017 4:05 am

I don't have time for Legion right now. I wish I would but I just don't.

Also, Prison Break is starting next, next, week!!! I have missed Wentworth Miller on my TV...

Also, also, 12 monkeys news, apparently it has already been renewed for a 10-episode 4th season but the 4th season is already confirmed as being the last. So we basically have 20 left. That's a bit disappointing but I'm really glad they know ahead of time. At least they have an actual end date to work towards that so many TV shows never get .
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: TV shows are cool

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Mon Apr 03, 2017 4:07 am

I shouldve known that rick and morty season 3 would air on april fools day.And with Nathan Fillion in it,no less.

I wonder,if the show reaches season 12,will rick actually get his hands on that szechuan sauce?
Steve C

Re: TV shows are cool

Postby Steve C » Mon Apr 03, 2017 11:29 am

Rick and Morty?! Holy shit! That was an awesome episode! Am I right in that there was no promotion for the season premiere? Plus they released it on April Fool's Day so nobody would believe it when it was released? Also is it back? Really back? I've also read today that Rick and Morty isn't continuing season 3 until August.

They also outdid themselves. That episode was DENSE. There were jokes, and subtle jokes under those, and dozens of other jokes you could only get by freeze frame. I've never seen a comedy that dense before. Then there is the product placement! Either they went to McDonald's first and got a ton of money out of them, OR... they didn't and are in an amazing bargaining position for when the show comes out for real in the summer. They can name their price and McDonald's would have to pay it or risk facing massive backlash. They can write it into the show that McDonald's sucks and is run by Tammy or something. AND they can do the same thing with Disney with the new Mulan movie coming out in 2018.

Dan Harmon & Justin Roiland are jaw dropping amazing. They are also giant assholes perfectly capable of making those kinds of threats.

BTW Thanks. I wouldn't have known except for your post.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: TV shows are cool

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Mon Apr 03, 2017 4:14 pm

I think they did it simply because they want the sauce back.The fans are signing the petitions like crazy now.

And yeah,that was a perfect april fools prank.
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JadedDM

Re: TV shows are cool

Postby JadedDM » Mon Apr 03, 2017 4:19 pm

It's not back completely. That was just a sneak peak. The rest of the season will follow later this year.

The ending was a nice callback to the first episode. Dark as hell, too.

I don't remember szechuan sauce at all, actually. Then again, I was only 16 back in '98, so maybe I just forgot.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: TV shows are cool

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:33 pm

JadedDM wrote:I don't remember szechuan sauce at all, actually. Then again, I was only 16 back in '98, so maybe I just forgot.


See,they are doing it so that even those who were kids back then can taste the goodness.They are the somebodies who think of the children!

By the way,did you guys check the after credits scene?Heh,heh.
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Andrew

Re: TV shows are cool

Postby Andrew » Thu Apr 06, 2017 12:32 am

Steve C wrote:Colony stuff...

Bit of a necro, but are you still watching this?

I have been stalled on episode 7 for about 2 months now but I'm getting to the point where I have not much else to watch and am not ready to start a new series yet so I'm thinking of going back to this.

Season 2 is nearly finished and from what I can see the whole season has been getting pretty solid reviews.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: TV shows are cool

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Thu Apr 06, 2017 6:39 am

New archer is up!And...oh god,they actually killed him.I didnt think they would ever do it,but they had the funeral and everything.How can they continue this show without such a pivotal character?

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