Movies are cool as well

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Thomas

Re: Movies are cool as well

Postby Thomas » Tue May 30, 2017 6:46 pm

Huh, I would have guessed Green Lantern came out at Iron Man time, but it's actually a lot later. It feels like an exception, because it's bad in the way Elecktra is bad, not bad in the way Batman vs Superman is bad.

Either way, I don't really mind if DC movies aren't consistently good now. The problem for me was they were consistently bad - they bigged up being creator driven independent visions but they were all the same Snyder sludge fest. I don't think Suicide Squad would ever have been universally loved (although it's pleasant to find it's not universally despised), but it feels like they tried to make the original version more corporate and samey.

If from now on they give DC films to talented people who respect the properties and all try to do unique things (which sometimes flame out), I'd be fine with that. Marvel have consistency covered.

The only film I really really wanted them to get right was Wonder Woman and they did! I'm so excited for it now.

(EDIT: So for example, I like what Fox did, even if it felt like it was by accident. Deadpool, Days of Future Past, Logan and X-Men First Class are worth the sacrifices of Fan4stic and Apocalypse)
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Lachlan the Sane
Location: I come from the land down under, where women blow and men chunder

Re: Movies are cool as well

Postby Lachlan the Sane » Wed May 31, 2017 12:34 am

Well, Snyder isn't directing Justice League any more, he's left the project because of a death in the family and Joss Whedon is finishing the picture. But I doubt Whedon can actually do much about all the colourless footage Snyder has already ruined.
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JadedDM

Re: Movies are cool as well

Postby JadedDM » Wed May 31, 2017 2:56 am

Two things: First, Synder did work on Wonder Woman. He was a producer and worked on the story.

Second, Justice League was already more or less done when Whedon was handed the reins. So if the movie is good or bad, the credit or blame should probably still go to Snyder.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Movies are cool as well

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Wed May 31, 2017 5:05 am

Producer has a far lesser impact on the quality of the film,especially if they are busy doing another project while this one is being made.
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Supahewok

Re: Movies are cool as well

Postby Supahewok » Wed May 31, 2017 2:48 pm

Daemian Lucifer wrote:Producer has a far lesser impact on the quality of the film,especially if they are busy doing another project while this one is being made.

Maybe in traditional film, but in this age of cinematic universes, the producers have to have a strong hand on the reins to make sure all the projects fit together and have consistent quality. Just look at the Marvel films. Sure, the director and writers are important, but every Marvel movie has that sort of same glossy sheen and formula. That's the producers showing their influence.
Bloodsquirrel

Re: Movies are cool as well

Postby Bloodsquirrel » Wed May 31, 2017 3:38 pm

JadedDM wrote:Second, Justice League was already more or less done when Whedon was handed the reins. So if the movie is good or bad, the credit or blame should probably still go to Snyder.


Post-production and editing can have a huge effect on the film, though. Hell, there have been several big movies recently (like BvS) that were way overshot and had to be cobbled together into something semi-coherent that wouldn't be four hours long in editing. The recent Frantasic 4 and Suicide Squad movies changed massively in post-production.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Movies are cool as well

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Wed May 31, 2017 4:38 pm

Bloodsquirrel wrote: The recent Frantasic 4 and Suicide Squad movies changed massively in post-production.


It didnt help though.
Bloodsquirrel

Re: Movies are cool as well

Postby Bloodsquirrel » Wed May 31, 2017 6:08 pm

Daemian Lucifer wrote:
It didnt help though.


Well, it might have. We never saw either of the "original" versions.

Not that I'm expecting Whedon to help anyway. If I had any hopes for Justice League in the first place, this news would worry me.
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Thomas

Re: Movies are cool as well

Postby Thomas » Wed May 31, 2017 9:03 pm

A world where the DC films all successfully copied the same Marvel banter and sheen would only be marginally better than a world where they're all crud Zack Snyder films
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Narratorway
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Re: Movies are cool as well

Postby Narratorway » Fri Jun 02, 2017 8:26 am

Wonder Woman treats WWI the way Battlefield 1 treated WW1. There's the barest amount of lip service being paid to the fact that the Germans aren't Nazis, nevermind the Wild Wild West level of out-of-era tech on display. The whole theme awkwardly being thrust through the movie is about the pointlessness of war and how horrible it makes people and you-know-that-drill and WWI is the best example of that...cept it doesn't really matter to your story if you don't actually...y'know...do that. Instead it starts with Chris Pine telling Diana he's the good guy and the Germans are the bad guys and it tows that line all the way through. Also it bugs me that Germans speak English. I wouldn't be bugged, cept the movie goes out its way to mention language barriers, so that's clearly a thing.

Other than that, it's...fine I guess? There's a lot of awkward moments in this movie, but it keeps itself coherent in some fashion, so already its miles above every other DCCU endeavor. Mostly, it'd be on the lesser side of 'good' if it weren't y'know...hitched to an absolute train wreck of films. Which is honestly probably why I found it the least entertaining. Since it's actually competent, I had to take it seriously and it's just not good enough on its own to merit the kind of engagement I got out the go-for-broke bad of the previous movies.

The beginning certainly had promise in that regard. The composite work during the Themyscira scenes are some of the worst I've seen in any movie. There's a shot where young Diana jumps down a wall that looks like something you'd see from Doug Walker. Not knocking Doug mind, but I'm damn skippy he's not working from a $150 mil budget.
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ecto_stantz_tial
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Re: Movies are cool as well

Postby ecto_stantz_tial » Fri Jun 02, 2017 7:34 pm

Got around to watching Suicide Squad and X-Men Apocalypse not really my thing either of them. I had to pause both movies many times to be able to sit through them.

some notes, few spoilers, but they be tagged.
Suicide Squad:
Does this movie start at some point? Been introduced to the plot and characters three times already, and it's been half an hour, and the story hasn't moved forward yet.
Joker is why? Just why? For whatever reason Joker also cares about Harley? - eh, what ever.
I kind of like Harley, for those very rare, very short, times when she slips into a more classic Harley voice. Though why can they not just keep the accent? More so, why have BOTH the accent and not? Most of the time she doesn't speak in the accent, but then, there are a few lines here and there in the movie when she does. Without any reason.
Rather enjoyed the effects, from simple to more cgi with Enchantress, other than one or two quick moments I felt they really tried with her. When she was the merchandising and poster shown Enchantress, when she changed to watered down enchantress who makes zombies I was bored with her
"Everyone's so funny!" - all the time. Annoyed by the 'banter' that never ends, from everyone.
Does the music EVER actually help build a scene in this movie? Or do anything to help the movie? All the music seems out of place.
Task Force X, the Suicide Squad is put together only for the purpose of stopping a threat that does not exist until after they are formed. Great story telling there. They could of had a nice little 15-20 minute mission where they stopped some dumbass(es) or something, OR do your montage introduction(s) of them doing Suicide missions, where they build up resentment towards Waller! Each can have their own little moments, music blaring, some c-listers being part of the squad dying to show some seriousness on Waller's part, and that they really are part of this little group of puppets being pulled by strings, and they hate it, and fear the consequences. DAMN IT MOVIE!
Why does everyone seem to care about Harley? I mean the squad, the characters, they all seem like they just care about Harley. And there's no reason for it, they all only just met, but yet, she's like their princess almost.
"Lady you are evil!" - You JUST wept grown man tears over how awesome it would be for you to kill Batman, Mr. "I'm not a bad guy."
You know what doesn't make a fight scene great? Smoke, fog, and shit obscuring everything. Mixed with quick cut close ups, mixed with slow motion.
Other than the finale the movie was filled with start and stop pointless fight scenes. Fight scenes where nothing was gained, nor lost, every fight. Meaningless battles, just for actions sake.

Overall I didn't like the movie, disappointingly mindless, forgettable.

X-Men Apocalypse:
I liked the opening for the most part. Apocalypse looked dumb, but at least things were happening, there was a story set in place, and played out with no exposition. Apocalypse was ruling over the people, the subjugated rose against their master in his greatest moment of weakness, and they put a lot of thought and effort into it. Very competent, well done, kudos.
Nightcrawler cannot teleport because of electricity ?
"Mystique saved the president." - Fuck You!
Magneto's opening scenes, giving him a story, a background, exploring a brief part of his history touched on in the comics. Giving him further motivation. It's good.
Very meh about Cyclops being student #36 or whatever, instead of one of the originals.
Early movie has a few too many story lines being introduced/character perspectives.
Jean's having nightmares about Phoenix powers? Why movie, why? Why can't you cosmic entity? X-men go to space, please?
Why does Storm suck at stealing?
Hey, Xavier's still a douche at least, kudos!
What? -__- Storm, the thief, talking about how you cannot do stuff because of laws? Did I misread that scene completely or is characterization just that hard sometimes?
Typically shy Cyke, not so shy this time around, like at all. Eh.
Very off moment of Jean and Cyke feeling like outcasts...in the group of outcasts. Not even a Murlocs\disfigured mutant vs pretty\passable mutants, just, they're so different, because teenage feelings I guess? I don't know. Not sure the movie does either.
Why do I feel like this Angel is supposed to be Banshee instead? Accent, poor, outsider\questionable loyalties, doesn't really feel like Angel.
"Hank, you're building a war plane down here." - You are Mystique, you are supposed to want to steal that, not give a lecture about right and wrong, little miss assassin!
So instead of Wanda is the Ms. Pac-Man machine Pietro's sister in this? 'Cause I'm okay with that.
"I erased her memories." - and he smiles. Good old douchey.
Not that I ever have had strong feelings in regards to Alex Summers, but I liked that idea of him always trying his best, always trying so hard to be great, just always being manipulated, tricked, and finding himself on the wrong side. You could of had some fun with that, movie.
Quicksilver scene - fun, interesting, well done. But the music doesn't feel right to me.
Starting to feel the movie is a bit disconnected, padded for length.
How is all this news being spread so fast in the '80's? And research being finished so quickly, and any of this other stupidness?
I feel like either I don't understand Psylocke's psychic blade or the movie doesn't. But I'm sure one of us is wrong.
Bad movie, bad! Slow, wordy, heartful moments do not blend well mixed in with quick cut action scenes.
Why do we need to keep going back to Jean's "Gotta poop." face during all these quick cut action scenes?
Very much missing the classic Death, Petulance, ect, based horsemen, and also the mind control bit. Weird things to leave out.
Apocalypse you fool! Just snap her blue neck already! Please, I beg of you!
And now I realize Apocalypse has done very little in this movie. He destroyed a town, I think? And kidnapped Xavier. He didn't enslave anyone, just granted power to them, and asked them to join him, very nicely I might add. He didn't blow up the school, Havok did, Apocalypse didn't even re-direct Havok's blast, or really even dodge it, he just left. Stryker was more productive, and a bigger threat\villain - HE neutralized a yard of mutants, kidnapped his personal pick of the litter, already had wolverine in lockdown, experimenting on him - thanks to our "hero" Mystique, and held a handful of X-Men powerless.
I saw that movie! Those stupid beams started to glow hot! Optic blasts do not generate heat, no combustion. For shame movie, for shame. Looking at you too Lego Marvel game! I will not forget.
Movie! In you, you've shown on a power scale Apocalypse destroyed a town\city and Magneto from one location is disrupting the entire planet. Magneto and Cyclops should be able to at the very least make Apocalypse sweat, push him back, knock him down, something! Movie! Cyclops in raw power is one of the stronger mutants there is. Why nerf him all the time? Those who don't like him, even love to hate him at least. He needs to be a little cocky, sure of himself, mixed with self doubt, quiet, to the point, take charge, stick up his ass, Cyclops.
Are the X-Men morons!? Hubris assholes do you know it? If sentinels exist they'll destroy and enslave all human life - remember the last movie? So you keep some around to beat up on? And you know those making these movies don't give a shit to turn that into a Danger Room becoming self aware and attempting to fight back against her captors sort of story right?
While I don't hate the movie, though many aggravating little bits in it, this series as a whole I think is turning out awful. The disconnect between these three movies is sizable.
Also it'd be considerate of you to NOT put your after credits scene at the very end of your credits, thank you, jerks.

Next up, Doctor Strange.
Steve C

Re: Movies are cool as well

Postby Steve C » Fri Jun 02, 2017 9:59 pm

Though why can they not just keep the accent? More so, why have BOTH the accent and not? Most of the time she doesn't speak in the accent, but then, there are a few lines here and there in the movie when she does. Without any reason.
I can answer this one. Because they actually got the character correct!* Harley's accent is an affectation that she puts on. Harley has a PHD and is a gold medal Olympic gymnast. She's not a stupid valley girl, she just pretends to be.

Suicide Squad is put together only for the purpose of stopping a threat that does not exist until after they are formed. Great story telling there.
I agree with the rest of your criticisms but not this one. The government has already had the various crises from the Superman and Batman movies. They had no real response to any of it. They expect future problems and want a response to it. Logical and reasonable. This decision (of course) causes the next crisis because the path to hell is paved with good intentions. Pretty classic story telling really: Do something dangerous with good intentions and cause the very thing you were trying to avoid.

*Hopefully... The reality might be that they completely ignored Harley's background. Then decided to do scenes both with and without the accent because they couldn't decide which was best. Then screwed it up by editing in takes with the accent and without because they are hacks. I'm going to be optimistic and say they did it deliberately in an effort to portray the character correctly.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Movies are cool as well

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Fri Jun 02, 2017 10:04 pm

Steve C wrote:They expect future problems and want a response to it. Logical and reasonable.


Except that their response to an ALIEN THAT CAN LEVEL WHOLE CITIES is a bunch of criminals who can shot things and pummel things and throw boomerangs at things and set fire to things and climb things.Now Im no expert,but doesnt the military cover all of that already(well,except for the boomerang)?The only reasonable(sort of)one they got for the threat they thought of preventing is the enchantress,the one that goes rogue.
Steve C

Re: Movies are cool as well

Postby Steve C » Fri Jun 02, 2017 10:30 pm

It's something. Their only other option is nothing. They want a team of people who they can give an order to that might be morally objectionable and have them not object. An order that the commanders giving it have no clue how it could be accomplished, expect it to be impossible and expect 100% causalities in the attempt. An order that nobody would be comfortable giving because you don't order your own troops to their needless deaths. An order that would be politic suicide both if it succeeded or failed due to the optics of wasting human life on a morally indefensible action. An order like "kill Superman" or "kill Batman."

It's the idea that anything is better than nothing even when it is actually making the problem worse. An idea that is taken directly from the real world. I could go into specifics using real world examples but then I'd absolutely be deep into politics.
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The Rocketeer

Re: Movies are cool as well

Postby The Rocketeer » Fri Jun 02, 2017 11:01 pm

While none of that makes sense, I find it especially risible that killing DC cinematic universe Superman and Batman would be "morally indefensible."
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Supahewok

Re: Movies are cool as well

Postby Supahewok » Fri Jun 02, 2017 11:07 pm

On the subject of the accent, didn't Suicide Squad have substantial reshoots? That could also be a source for discrepancies.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Movies are cool as well

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Fri Jun 02, 2017 11:49 pm

The Rocketeer wrote:While none of that makes sense, I find it especially risible that killing DC cinematic universe Superman and Batman would be "morally indefensible."


Precisely.No one would mind getting the order to off one of those jokers.Well,if they had a way to end superman,that is.In the comics,sure the squad makes sense.Not only because the heroes are more heroic,but because there are way more of them,many who arent invulnerable like supes.Heck,even in the arrowverse the squad makes sense,seeing what they are used for.
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The Rocketeer

Re: Movies are cool as well

Postby The Rocketeer » Sat Jun 03, 2017 12:09 am

Well, yeah, with Batman they can put together some kind of task force and try to shoot all his bodyparts or at least arrest the guy. With Superman, they're probably better off asking, "What, if anything, can we offer you to fuck off from our planet and never come back, please, there's not much we won't put on the table."
Steve C

Re: Movies are cool as well

Postby Steve C » Sat Jun 03, 2017 2:39 am

M'kay. Didn't think that would be a controversial opinion. Let me try a different tact since I think you are missing my point...

You are a regular enlisted solider. Everyone knows exactly who Zod is and what he is capable of. You are ordered to kill Zod. You have no means of hurting him. You have no means to do anything useful at all. I submit that it is a morally indefensible for anyone to give that order. It cannot be accomplished. All it can do is get your own soldiers killed. Nothing useful can come of it. It's like ordering men to invade Nazi Germany armed only with broomsticks. It's just a pointless waste of life and it invites orders being disobeyed.

Now compare that to ordering criminals to do the same thing. Criminals who just for common sense reasons really should be executed anyway. They probably won't succeed but it doesn't really matter. You aren't ordering good people to their deaths for no reason. You're ordering bad people to their deaths because they are resourceful and just might get lucky. (Probably just dead which is fine too.)

The Superman/Batman examples were because it would be controversial. Even if lots of people support the idea, a lot would be very much against it. The people in charge don't need to invite the disapproval if they can blame it on criminals after.

While none of that makes sense,
That's a dickish reply.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Movies are cool as well

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Sat Jun 03, 2017 3:12 am

Steve C wrote:I submit that it is a morally indefensible for anyone to give that order. It cannot be accomplished. All it can do is get your own soldiers killed. Nothing useful can come of it. It's like ordering men to invade Nazi Germany armed only with broomsticks. It's just a pointless waste of life and it invites orders being disobeyed.


All throughout the history there are plethora of examples of that exact thing.My favorite is that guy who lost a battle against numerically way inferior army because he sent his troops in small waves until they were all incapacitated.The few that disobey such orders simply desert,they dont revolt.

So yeah,you still can just use the army.And the army has more chance against superman simply because they are better equipped.Or,you know,have one of your spies try to assassinate the guy,which is also something that is known* to happen in history.

Suicide squad does not make sense in this universe because it was translated directly from the comics,without adaption,despite the two universes having vastly different events happening in them.

*Or speculated in many cases,due to all the secrecy behind such events.
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The Rocketeer

Re: Movies are cool as well

Postby The Rocketeer » Sat Jun 03, 2017 3:26 am

Look, sport, if, in the process of defending one of the worst movies of the past year (and, by extension, two others) you go on a vague, pseudo-political tirade, closing with a mea culpa helpfully reminding everyone that a specific rebuttal would transgress the rules of the forum, you take whatever broad dismissal you get with equanimity.

If you don't like those rules, don't play that game.

I understood your argument just fine. I just don't agree, if you can believe it. It's not near the level of those epic thinkpieces about why the Star Wars prequel trilogy is a work of unparalleled genius that its detractors can't comprehend, but it's a hell of a long way to go to deflect the actual, boring explanation of Suicide Squad's nonsensical premise: it's a pure brand-recognition cash-in set in a universe fundamentally broken by its inept forerunners, and no effort was made to craft any kind of narrative coherence or plausibility because the movie was produced by cynical hacks nakedly chasing Deadpool and Guardians of the Galaxy, then edited by a trailer house with no cinematic ability.
Steve C

Re: Movies are cool as well

Postby Steve C » Sat Jun 03, 2017 4:08 am

I understood your argument just fine. I just don't agree,
Then just say that instead of dickish things like:
you go on a vague, pseudo-political tirade,

Rocketter, I don't know what crawled up your ass, but I don't want to smell it. You'll just have to take that broad dismissal with equanimity too.
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Narratorway
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Re: Movies are cool as well

Postby Narratorway » Sat Jun 03, 2017 7:18 am

Steve C wrote:
While none of that makes sense,
That's a dickish reply.


Well it's to a dumbass argument, so...

Image
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Supahewok

Re: Movies are cool as well

Postby Supahewok » Sat Jun 03, 2017 1:54 pm

I think its morally indefensible to send *anybody* senselessly to their deaths in the "hope" they get "lucky." Criminals included. Two wrongs do not make a right.
Steve C

Re: Movies are cool as well

Postby Steve C » Sat Jun 03, 2017 2:55 pm

Supahewok wrote:I think its morally indefensible to send *anybody* senselessly to their deaths in the "hope" they get "lucky." Criminals included. Two wrongs do not make a right.
Oh I agree. (Realized I never said that and implied the opposite.)

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