Movies are cool as well

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Thomas

Re: Movies are cool as well

Postby Thomas » Sun Mar 19, 2017 6:47 pm

I believe Daemian is using authorial intent correctly. Authorial intent doesn't say you should accept the author has having achieved their intentions regardless of the work. It says you should examine the work through the lens of what the author meant to do.

So it wouldn't matter if you could come up with contrived theories of how Twilight worked, you look at how well Stephanie achieved what she attempted, which was to tell a love story, and whether those intentions are worthwhile.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Movies are cool as well

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Sun Mar 19, 2017 11:16 pm

How beauty and the beast(1991) shouldve ended.With the best line being:

"So the prince immediately slammed the door.Because he saw suicide squad and that movie sucked"

Also that song in the end.
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Thomas

Re: Movies are cool as well

Postby Thomas » Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:34 pm

I'm coming to suspect the writing in Logan isn't that good, but because its well presented and fits the anti-superhero undercurrent that some people seem to be pining for again, nobody has really noticed.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Movies are cool as well

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Tue Mar 21, 2017 3:12 pm

Thomas wrote:I'm coming to suspect the writing in Logan isn't that good, but because its well presented


So the writing is good then.How its presented is part of the writing.I mean,take this joke from hitchhikers:

"For a moment,nothing happened.Then,after a second or so,nothing continued to happen."

It can easily be replaced with "Nothing happened for a few seconds".But that wouldnt be nearly as funny.Thats presentation.
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Thomas

Re: Movies are cool as well

Postby Thomas » Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:16 pm

I don't think that's true. I could give a terrible line to Sir Ian McKellan, and he could pull it off, but it wouldn't make it a good line. And I definitely could make a very pretty film with a crud story.

If you're going to make the idea of presentation so broad it covers "every part of communicating - including the idea being communicated", then well I retract my statement and use a different word for presentation instead, because the definition's so broad it's pretty worthless in any conversation.
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Ringwraith

Re: Movies are cool as well

Postby Ringwraith » Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:48 pm

Well, some of Star Trek: The Next Generation's dodgier lines are saved by Patrick Stewart's ability to say the most ridiculous thing completely sincerely after all.
Steve C

Re: Movies are cool as well

Postby Steve C » Fri Mar 24, 2017 4:33 am

I started watching "Son of Batman". I read it was really good. A review put it at the top of a list of DC animated movies. I got 10mins in. I gave it 5mins too much. It's just a terrible anime.

So I started watching "Star Wars Rogue One." That movie really got me thinking. It made me think that CG simulacrums of dead actors brought a new level to the uncanny valley. Really needs a new term for it. Distasteful valley? Abhorrent valley? Abominable valley? I'm not sure but "uncanny" just doesn't cut it anymore.

I got halfway through that movie and got bored. I watched the newest episode of "Legion." When it was done I wanted to watch more. I'm not convinced it is a good show. It is a fascinating show. It is unlike anything else I've seen. It is its own (crazy) thing. I use 'thing' on purpose. It's less a show then it is someone else's fever dream on screen.
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Ringwraith

Re: Movies are cool as well

Postby Ringwraith » Fri Mar 24, 2017 12:03 pm

The problem is putting your CG-actors in scenes with real actors. Or doing extended close-ups.
Basically, everything they did, don't do that, makes it incredibly obvious.
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Lachlan the Sane
Location: I come from the land down under, where women blow and men chunder

Re: Movies are cool as well

Postby Lachlan the Sane » Thu Mar 30, 2017 1:24 am

Quick PSA for everyone: The 2nd trailer for Spider-Man: Homecoming is super-duper spoiler-y. As in, it spoils most of the major plot beats and action scenes of the movie. If you're spoiler-adverse, don't watch it.
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Thomas

Re: Movies are cool as well

Postby Thomas » Fri Apr 14, 2017 5:36 pm

The next Star Wars trailer is here
https://arstechnica.co.uk/the-multivers ... ler-watch/

There's some debate about Grey Jedi surrounding it, because it says "The Jedi must end" * and it seems to be using "balance" as in "balance of light side and dark side" ** rather than "balance is light and tranquility, the dark side is chaotic and unbalancing". But that's not the Star Wars heresy that's bothering me.

Luke has paper in his mancave. Paper books. There's no paper in the Star Wars universe! That's one of the rules!


* A good time to remember the (excellent) interpretation that a certain Twentysider introduced lots of us to, that the original films are about Jediism's failings and it's Luke learning to cast them off that wins in the end.

** I've always hated this, or rather felt it would take a very good writer to pull this version off, because "there's too much good in the world, we need to balance it out with some more evil" seems pretty dumb. Like what would 'balancing light and dark sides' actually mean - we're only forcechoke our work colleagues slightly and it's only polite to blow up planets of friends? A very good writer could maybe turn that into a philosophy of the futility of pretending our worse halves don't exist and going forward by learning how to channel them, or on how humans can only seem to describe good through conflict - something like that, but it'd need a very good writer.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Movies are cool as well

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Fri Apr 14, 2017 5:44 pm

Thomas wrote:"there's too much good in the world, we need to balance it out with some more evil"


Considering that originally the light vs dark meant law versus chaos,not good vs evil,balance between the two made sense.

Thomas wrote:Luke has paper in his mancave. Paper books. There's no paper in the Star Wars universe! That's one of the rules!


Blasphemy!
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krellen
Location: The City in New Mexico
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Re: Movies are cool as well

Postby krellen » Fri Apr 14, 2017 8:48 pm

Hi.
gloatingswine

Re: Movies are cool as well

Postby gloatingswine » Fri Apr 14, 2017 9:05 pm

Thomas wrote:** I've always hated this, or rather felt it would take a very good writer to pull this version off, because "there's too much good in the world, we need to balance it out with some more evil" seems pretty dumb. Like what would 'balancing light and dark sides' actually mean - we're only forcechoke our work colleagues slightly and it's only polite to blow up planets of friends? A very good writer could maybe turn that into a philosophy of the futility of pretending our worse halves don't exist and going forward by learning how to channel them, or on how humans can only seem to describe good through conflict - something like that, but it'd need a very good writer.


I dunno, every time the Jedi come into ascendancy they already generate their own nemesis and the galaxy is plunged into civil war. In both the Old Republic and the new, it's the Jedi's calcified structure or inability to respond to an external threat that causes their downfall. The Jedi were passive in the face of the Mandalorians, and that led to the rise of Revan, and they were unable to respond to the ambitions of Palpatine and that led to the Empire.

Both of these events followed, essentially, long periods of peace in which the Jedi were in the ascendant.

Whenever they have no counterbalancing force, the Jedi become crap.
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Thomas

Re: Movies are cool as well

Postby Thomas » Fri Apr 14, 2017 9:24 pm

I'm not saying the Jedi are great, Krellen's flawed philosophy thing makes a lot of sense, but the idea of "balance" is a Jedi idea and it makes no sense to believe they were saying you need more Sith. Also when the Jedi got to the top, things started going back when the Sith reappeared, so surely the war period of the Old Republic is more "balanced" because you have more Sith. In fact the setting of the MMO is about as balanced as you can get because Jedi and Sith are locked in a stalemate war.

Saying the Jedi way is broken and always leads to creating conflict and the resurgence of the darkside, is interesting - but that's not talking about balance. It's saying everything the whole philosophy is flawed and maybe the universe needs something else instead.

Daemian Lucifer wrote:
Thomas wrote:"there's too much good in the world, we need to balance it out with some more evil"


Considering that originally the light vs dark meant law versus chaos,not good vs evil,balance between the two made sense.

That still makes better sense in the way I mean it, if Light=Law, then Light=Peace=Balance, whilst Dark=chaos=an unbalancing force.

It also doesn't fit very well with the original films at all because the Empire is Lawful Evil. And it doesn't fit with the Eastern philosophy roots and emphasis on mediation etc where finding tranquillity (balance) and ceasing strife are virtues whilst chaos is not. It wouldn't fit for them to say "You need a bit more chaos".
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Movies are cool as well

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Fri Apr 14, 2017 9:30 pm

Thomas wrote:That still makes better sense in the way I mean it, if Light=Law, then Light=Peace=Balance, whilst Dark=chaos=an unbalancing force.


Law is not balance.It can be taken to lots of extremes(fascism).

Thomas wrote:It also doesn't fit very well with the original films at all because the Empire is Lawful Evil.


Thats because in the original films everything wasnt black and white.Vader and the emperor were temperamental,sure,but their underlings and their empire did not 100% operate on pure rage all the time.
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Retsam

Re: Movies are cool as well

Postby Retsam » Fri Apr 14, 2017 10:39 pm

I also don't see Daemian's interpretation of Light/Dark as Law/Chaos either. The story is a pretty straightforward triumph of good over evil, of people who respect things like life, freedom, and human dignity over people who don't. It's not a triumph of law over chaos, if anything it's a sometimes chaotic leaning Rebellion triumphing over a lawful empire.

The original films were quite black and white. There's never any ambiguity that Vader, the Empire, and the Emperor are all evil and need to be removed. (Luke believes that it's possible to redeem Vader... but that just reinforces the point that Vader is evil and needs to be redeemed)

And, I don't really see that changing, frankly. I can get behind Luke suggesting that the Jedi is a flawed institution, and maybe it needs to be replaced, or is doing more harm than good. But the idea that he's advocating for "more darkness" is just silly. Luke's issue is that he's seen too much darkness, not that he wants to see more.

---

Regarding the paper, the Reddit suggestion is that that's the Journal of the Whills, some ancient artifact which is quoted at the beginning of the Force Awakens novelization.
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Thomas

Re: Movies are cool as well

Postby Thomas » Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:18 pm

I had a lengthy post written up on how Star Wars is black and white, but I think Retsam probably put it better in a paragraph :)

Balance in the Force is achieving a state of calm, as in "centring yourself". When something bad happens it's a "disturbance in the Force" - something which has unbalanced it. And I mean, it's the Jedi who want to bring balance to Force, they're going to be advocating a world with less light side!

---------------------------

I would be very satisfied to find there's an obscure lore justification for the paper =D I'll have to read up on this Journal!
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Movies are cool as well

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:57 pm

Retsam wrote:I also don't see Daemian's interpretation of Light/Dark as Law/Chaos either. The story is a pretty straightforward triumph of good over evil, of people who respect things like life, freedom, and human dignity over people who don't. It's not a triumph of law over chaos, if anything it's a sometimes chaotic leaning Rebellion triumphing over a lawful empire.


Its a bunch of things actually.And lukes discipline and calmness vs vaders anger and rashness is one of them.
Steve C

Re: Movies are cool as well

Postby Steve C » Sat Apr 15, 2017 4:06 am

I watched Silence. It reminded me a lot of Arrival. I'm a real sucker for these kinds of movies. Movies that are desperately trying to say something through foreshadowing are my kryptonite. When done well (Unbroken, Six Sense) I love it. When done poorly (Arrival, and Silence*) I feel like I kept getting strung along until I gave the movie enough rope to hang myself. In both Silence and Arrival stuff happens in the end and I'm "Interesting! ok! Now what??" Movie answers with <fart noises> roll credits. If I wasn't such a sucker I'd give these movies the 5mins they deserve and turn it off. The ones that don't work all have the same flaw. They are all...
A thing that claims to have a profundity or importance that it does not actually possess.

...or in just 4 words; Silence is pretentious drivel.

* I don't count other M. Night Shamadingdong's movies in there. They are "Twist" movies. They are similarly irritating but have no hope in working. The "Twist" is just some extra shit that doesn't matter. It makes no difference to the narrative or the plot if The Village is today, 100 yrs ago or on a different planet. It's just bullshit at the end to make it seem deep.
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Thomas

Re: Movies are cool as well

Postby Thomas » Sat Apr 15, 2017 11:00 am

If someone was going to pick two films out of Arrival, Silence, 6th Sense and Unbroken that weren't 'claiming to have a profundity that they don't actually have', I'd never have guessed that they'd pick 6th Sense and Unbroken.

As someone whose had problems and questions with faith, I've recognised a lot of my own doubts in Silence, but not in Shyamalans films.

Edit: Actually that's harsh, because um making it sound like Shyamalan is insincere and I don't think that's true at all. Just that in the same way his films ate always a little too stylised, he's also a little too eager for his themes to be a big revelation.

Whereas Scorscese has the specificity of someone who himself wanted to be a Priest once and has spent decades thinking about making this film.
Steve C

Re: Movies are cool as well

Postby Steve C » Sat Apr 15, 2017 5:56 pm

Nobody thinks injecting Superheroes into a movie suddenly makes it profound. That whatever it has to say obviously has gravitas because it has superheroes in it. It is certainly possible, but the movie has to put in the work to get the audience there. Unbroken put in the work to get the audience to the reveal and conclusion. It's not that it was profound on it's own. It was profound in the context of the narrative of the movie.

I'm like that with all subject matter. Because a movie has religion in it, it does not necessarily mean it has something interesting to say in the context of a movie narrative. Scorscese might have been better off with subject matter he wasn't so familiar with. Scorscese does nothing to bring the audience along. The audience might end up in the same place as Scorscese, sure. That's not the movie's doing though. That's the culturally significant subject matter the movie is sitting on top of. "Doubt" was a far better movie with similar subject matter.

Science fiction often suffers from something similar. Where it desperately wants to say something and it gets lost trying to say it and ends up saying nothing else. IE it ends up lacking interesting characters, plot, narrative, etc. It turns into nothing other than speculative essay. That's what Silence is... all it is. It is a speculative essay about what happened to 2 or 3 priests centuries ago. That and torture porn.

Arrival was just... nothing. The more I think about that movie the more it aggravates me. It had nothing to say and took it's sweet time to not say it. It is a good example of what I was talking about with speculative essays masquerading as a story. "What if you could be taught to understand your full timeline? What would that mean?" Which is a solid premise for a story. It is not a replacement for a story. It's as interesting a story as "What if everyone's farts had a visual element? What would that mean?"
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Movies are cool as well

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Sat Apr 15, 2017 6:07 pm

Steve C wrote:It's as interesting a story as "What if everyone's farts had a visual element? What would that mean?"


That sounds like a great premise for a south park episode.In fact,smug alert kind of is that story.
Steve C

Re: Movies are cool as well

Postby Steve C » Sat Apr 15, 2017 6:17 pm

I've watched that eps. I didn't realize the connection when I wrote it. I guess Simpsons South Park already did it!
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Thomas

Re: Movies are cool as well

Postby Thomas » Sun Apr 16, 2017 8:39 am

Steve C wrote:Nobody thinks injecting Superheroes into a movie suddenly makes it profound. That whatever it has to say obviously has gravitas because it has superheroes in it. It is certainly possible, but the movie has to put in the work to get the audience there. Unbroken put in the work to get the audience to the reveal and conclusion. It's not that it was profound on it's own. It was profound in the context of the narrative of the movie.

Unbroken has the same themes of faith and destiny as all of Shyamalan's other films. I wasn't talking about it being superheroes - I thought that's why you chose those films to compare, because all four have similar themes.

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