Movies are cool as well

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Steve C

Re: Movies are cool as well

Postby Steve C » Sun Apr 16, 2017 6:34 pm

I chose those films to compare because superheroes are frivolous. Religion is important. Therefore all a director needs to do is put RELIGION in caps in 150 point font at the start of a film, and bookend it with RELIGION at the end of movie and therefore everything in between is automatically significant. I of course do not agree with any of that. What is significant or not is what is inside those bookends. I judge the movie by what's inside while rolling my eyes at whatever bookends it is given. (Superheroes is just an example. As is ghosts, aliens, etc.)

I'm saying: theme is unimportant if a movie is good or not. It is just theme. Just one part of a movie.

BTW I don't agree they have similar themes. Sure, faith and destiny are themes in all those movies. It's like comparing a cake to a quiche because they both have eggs in. The degrees of which differ greatly and are emphasized in such different ways that it's not similar. (Which can be compared, sure, but has no bearing if it is good.) Arrival has heaps of destiny and little faith. Silence has heaps of faith and little destiny. They are similar in that they both suck for similar reasons. They forgot to include a movie with the theme they chose to explore.

Consider this: A thought experiment of changes to Silence...
Set it in the Marvel Universe. Change Japan to Genosha. All the actors are exactly the same. All the events and scenes are exactly the same. Dialogue is changed in minor ways so that everyone has faith that Magneto will save them. And that Professor Xavier will hear their pleas of help.
I believe that would be a solid contender for the worst movie ever made.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Movies are cool as well

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Sun Apr 16, 2017 6:51 pm

Thomas wrote:Unbroken has the same themes of faith and destiny as all of Shyamalan's other films.

Mr glass was driving the events of unbreakable*,so it wasnt destiny.Nor was it faith,because without his involvement,dunn would never have realized that he was a superhero.And it wasnt faith or destiny that turned price into mr glass,it was his search for purpose and his broken mind.

*Unbroken was directed by Angelina Jolie
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Re: Movies are cool as well

Postby Thomas » Sun Apr 16, 2017 9:44 pm

Themes might not matter if a film is good or not, but you were talking about pretension, which I assume would 100% involve the themes/meaning.

Unbreakable changes destiny up the most for his films but its still about it All of them involve a protagonist who has had a path laid out for them by a higher order - normally spiritual but in Unbreakable's case its a kind of karmic destiny - the protagonist, for some reason has fallen off the path/doesn't realise its there. The films climax with the protagonist realising their predestined role and accepting their place in that path.

Most of the Unbreakable you think its following that pattern classically but the Mr Glass reveal complicates it - but doesn't change it. Mr Glass wasn't acting as a free agent either - he had grown up believing he was fated to be a villain and literally gives a speech about how it was always going to turn out like this and he believed he was just playing his predestined role.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Movies are cool as well

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Sun Apr 16, 2017 10:29 pm

It wasnt his destiny,he wouldve lead a perfectly normal life if mr glass didnt get involved.Not to mention all the other people who died for this experiment to work.He wasnt the one chosen by some higher power,he was the one found by killing off a bunch.Just how Neil Armstrong wasnt the chosen one,but just the one who managed to endure all the training in order to complete the mission.

And what the diseased mind of mr glass conjured up does not make it something destined by a higher power.It was just him trying to justify his crappy lot in life.
Steve C

Re: Movies are cool as well

Postby Steve C » Sun Apr 16, 2017 11:58 pm

Thomas wrote:Themes might not matter if a film is good or not, but you were talking about pretension, which I assume would 100% involve the themes/meaning.
No, not really. Which themes are used are inconsequential. That's why I included a series of example movies with different themes. To be clear, I chose those movies because they had different themes, not because they had similar ones. I primarily chose them because they had similar tone and rising tension. They all had a buildup around what was happening and why. They all prodded at the audience as the movie progressed saying, "There is a deeper meaning here. A subtext that will be highlighted in the final act." They all had a reveal that was foreshadowed and a major part of the payoff of the climax. (Or rather a non-existent payoff and a non-existent climax in the case of Silence and Arrival.)

The inclusion of a theme (any theme) does NOT give a movie meaning. Not on it's own. "Themes/meaning" is not interchangeable. That is my point. If a movie attempts to derive all of it's meaning from the theme then it is a pretentious waste of time masquerading as something meaningful. And again, "meaningful" is in context of the movie.

I'm going to let Daemian carry the tangent on Unbreakable. I agree with his take (and spelling). I'd argue that none of those 4 movies have similar themes, but I really don't care to. They were just examples of movies with a heavily foreshadowed last act reveal, where the reveal has meaning because of the foreshadowing. Where if you cut out one of those parts the whole movie collapses.
Steve C

Re: Movies are cool as well

Postby Steve C » Mon Apr 17, 2017 8:49 am

I just watched Split. Somewhat appropriate to this discussion as it is another M. Night Shamadingdong movie (which I didn't realize until I saw him in it). I say only "somewhat appropriate" because it is neither a good example nor a poor one of what I was saying about themes vs meaning. Split has themes in it. Those themes have a meaning to the narrative of the movie, but nothing profound or anything. Just normal movie stuff that it tries to make work.

I did not like Split. I didn't like it on many different levels. At least I didn't feel like a sucker for giving it a chance.
Steve C

Re: Movies are cool as well

Postby Steve C » Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:34 pm

After a long LONG dry spell of movies I have not cared for, I've finally watched one I liked: Logan. A straight up quest story. Nothing fancy, just a solid movie with a surprisingly good child actor.
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Re: Movies are cool as well

Postby Jokerman » Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:23 am

I spent monday watch all the rocky films (apart from 5, because fuck 5)... which was a great way to spend a monday off.

My thoughts of them are the same, 3 is still my favorite of the series, the bromance between Apollo and Rocky being my favorite bromance ever, after watching the first 2 films as a kid, the thing i took away was how awesome Apollo Creed was... and how i would miss him in the sequels, and then they near enough make a whole film about him... very cool. Basically i rate the original films 3>1>4>2>5, and 2 ain't bad, it's just a rehash of 1, Apollo is still great.... they made Rocky extra dumb, but the fight was better than the first (far less obvious missed punches, these things start to stand out when you watch and score boxing for real)

Rocky 6 (Balboa) is still the 2nd worse for me, just... drab, dreary and the fight is boring, Tarver was boring... the son was annoying, bleh, wish they hadn't bothered and just gone straight to Creed...

Which leads me into Creed, which i watched for the first time... i was really surprised by how good it is, which is weird, since it seems to have traced over Rocky 1's script (although the antagonist was more Mr T than Apollo) but it was great, heart warming... proper rocky film and the action was better than ever, I even like Tony Bellew (who played the antagonist) in this film.... which was surprising.

But.... apparently i missed one, i have it on good authority from a Rocky fan that 'Grude Match' is underrated and actually pretty good, so ill watch that... how can i pass up Jake Lamotta (De Niro plays the other fighter ) vs Rocky?

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