The Expanse is so cool that I opened this topic just for it

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Andrew

Re: The Expanse is so cool that I opened this topic just for it

Post by Andrew » Thu Apr 06, 2017 12:36 am

Yeah Bobbie is the most disappointing for me because she's just so damn unlikable in the TV series. And she's so fucking stupid. She is not that person in Caliban's War.

I've pretty much finished Abaddon's Gate now. I like the way it ended although as I predicted both Sam and Bull die and somewhat surprisingly, Clarissa didn't.

I'm probably gonna jump straight into Cibola Burn now. Damn, this is a good series..
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Andrew

Re: The Expanse is so cool that I opened this topic just for it

Post by Andrew » Thu Apr 06, 2017 1:18 am

So apparently episode 13 of The Expanse is called 'Caliban's War'.

Cute.
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4th Dimension

Re: The Expanse is so cool that I opened this topic just for it

Post by 4th Dimension » Thu Apr 06, 2017 10:23 am

Yeah. I'm finding more and more that I prefer teh book version of events past the first season. They are grander in scale, and more detailed and persons in power are not FUCKING IDIOTS. They might be terrible people but they are not IDIOTS. Which goes hand in hand with me dissliking the whole edgefest that they like to focus in the TV show.
Also the time skip from the book was nice, since it allowed for things to properly settle and explain why the crew of Rossie is still together now that the Eros thing is over and why are they rusing into things. In the books they are actually employed by the OPA which is by then an actual polity and Holden spends the timeskip policing the space OPA controls, and they are not in a disagreement wit Fred, Fred is the de facto leader of the OPA and he himself sends them to Ganymede,
because he is not stupid and knows he needs eyes on the situation.


Also in the books so far the whiole unexpected thing where the most of the Earth's population is homeless?!?!? does not pop up. Yeah most of them are on dole, but from what I read it's not an uncomfortable way to live. You are probably living in smaller flats in buildings and can get access to entertainment systems and watch TV all day or whatever you want. Given what the waitress said it's not that the Earth BARS people from the education and getting a job, it's that the most of the population doesn't care to work since their basic needs, food, shelter and entertainment are met.
Oh and she goes out on her own allmost accidentally and doesn't like have to ESCAPE, abandon her position almost just so she could see the sea!?!? And the guy that gives her the advice is not some folk doctor thee to show how bad things are, but a guard at the UN compound who offers advice because he has seen Martians before and wants to help.
I mean now that I read the section (well the first part where she goes out and is at the caffe) it's better than the TV show version in EVERY way.

Also again it drives the point that while UN political system is not good, it's effectively ruled by unelected bureaucrats, the people in power are not holding the fucking idiot ball vis a vis Protogen/Mars and basically EVERYTHING else.
No I will not let that go.

The changes in the way Earth is working and how the things are for the normal peope allmost makes me think the changes are politics inspired. Somebody on the writing staff either did not like the fact that a society with that extreeme social services is working and turned it into the message "government support for the unemployed is BAD and you should be ashamed if you are not employed racking in millions", or it was done partially for the budgetary reasons and more importantly to edgefy that part of the plot.
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4th Dimension

Re: The Expanse is so cool that I opened this topic just for it

Post by 4th Dimension » Fri Apr 07, 2017 4:05 pm

Watched Episode 11. This one had quite a bit of stupid, which is not what I expect of this show.

Like the whole Bobbie thing. How the FUCK did she expect for him to know anything?!? He could have easily been just as uninformed as she was and following orders. Basically she got lucky that the guy on the conspiracy was so close to her. And her heel face turn about the Earth kind of came out of the blue, especially considering how miss bigot she was just like an episode ago.
Also Martens was fully right to chew her stupid ass out.

Then there was the shot where all the moons are in touching distance. That is not how space works and they should feel bad.

I prefered the storming of the base on Ganymede in the books. Again a larger scale.

Holden, Holden you dolt her lungs are filling with blood. She can't fucking say you anything and why would she... she is spilling some beans to you. You just got lucky.
While in the books I'm still on the part where they are trying to get off the moon, I don't really see what Mars could get from this messing with the protomolecule. The only thing would be to give them an army of super solders that could actually be able to match Earths billions of potential ground solders in case an invasion of Earth is possible.

Venus: I prefer the scale shown in the books and not these like two clumps.
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Andrew

Re: The Expanse is so cool that I opened this topic just for it

Post by Andrew » Sun Apr 09, 2017 1:05 pm

I just watched episode 11 as well so now I'm fully up to date on the TV show.

A few thoughts. There will be spoilers for both Season 2 and Caliban's War so read on only if you must!

1) Naomi tells Prax that she had a boy who she lost, once upon a time. I am about 98% certain that didn't happen in the novels, unless it comes sometime after Abaddon's Gate, in which case they are really pulling stuff forward here.

2) Martens is not the man in the TV series that he was in the novel. In the novel, he is Bobbie's ally (unlike Thorsen!) who, I believe, was just as blindsided by the Martian's dealings with the protomolecule as Bobbie was. I like it better in the novel - what they showed us in the TV series feels extremely rushed and they haven't exactly connected all of the dots. I guess that is what happens when you spend the first 1.5 seasons on the 1st novel and then try and squeeze all of the 2nd novel into the final 0.5 of season 2.

3) Watching Amos throw the grenade back where it came from was just as cool as I imagined it would be when I read it in the novel.

4) I am not so fussed about the scene with Alex slingshotting the moons. It was a cool visual and that is enough for me. James Corey has come out and said in the past that he isn't 100% on the science in his novels and it's because he would rather focus on telling the story and not get bogged down by the details. It seems they have taken this concept and run with it in the TV series but yeah, it's not something that I find myself getting too hung up on in general.

5) It's pretty clear that Holden is not a smart guy. He wears his heart on his sleeve and acts accordingly. On that basis, I think that him questioning a person who is dying is completely in character for him. Also remember that he is completely scared shitless of the protomolecule and everything it represents (even if they didn't do a great job of showing this in the episode) so acting irrationally is sort of par for the course at this stage for Holden... even more than usual.

I won't spoil anything about your musings on why Mars would want the protomolecule. It is revealed in Caliban's War (somewhere) so you'll find out eventually!

Now, onto Bobbie. The way they got her under Avasarala's wing in the TV series way too quick. They sort of railroaded her into it because of how they handled her way back at the start of the season. Basically her path in the TV series is following her path in the novel but the route she is taking is completely different. I have said it before and I will keep saying it - I hate how they are handling her because it feels wrong and it doesn't make logical sense. I am sure that my perception of this is clouded by what I have read but when I watch any scene with Bobbie it just strikes me how out of place her entire path feels, to date. Maybe it'll improve in the next few episodes but I feel that they are sort of at the point now where it is too late to change anything.

Huh, I went back over this post to put up spoiler tags but now that I read it I can't really find that many. Funny that...
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4th Dimension

Re: The Expanse is so cool that I opened this topic just for it

Post by 4th Dimension » Sun Apr 09, 2017 10:58 pm

I skimmed spoilers of tvtropes so I know about Naomi's son but then again this is all me glimpsing things via tvtropes. he exists, and he is her son with some sort of OPA psycho which is going to do several colony drops on the Earth in one of the books.

Yeah, I did not like the change with Martens at all. And like I said there REALLY was no reason to have someone in on the secret that close to Bobbie. She is a solder, and towing the official line is her duty, so any other officer would have chewed her out regardless. And yeah the whole Bobbie thing in the show is stupid to me. I simply can not connect the Bobbie from the start to this irational one whose every action is irrational.

Yeah, Holden is not the brightest bulb. Right now in the books he is annoying me with his idiotic suspicion.. no CERTAINTY that it was Fred that set up the experiment on Ganymede while forgetting that Ganymede is like FEEDING the belt. Doing anything to endanger that place would have been like the last thing he would want to do.. Sure he might be ruthless to experiment with it, but he is not so stupid to endanger Ganymede.
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Andrew

Re: The Expanse is so cool that I opened this topic just for it

Post by Andrew » Fri Apr 14, 2017 2:15 am

Haven't seen episode 12 yet but I have started reading Cibola Burn.

First impressions are that it is at least twice as interesting as Abaddon's Gate was. I understand the place that Abaddon's Gate occupies in the series but I'm just glad it's over with.

Also, the characters are so much more interesting too. Comparing the likes of Bull, Melba and Anna to Basia and Elvi is a no contest to me so far! And Havelock is back too. Pleasantly surprised to see that because I thought he was just a side character who would never return. I was also initially excited to see Bobbie as the prologue chapter but then quickly realised that it probably means she won't be in the story for good because that's how Corey usually does his prologue chapters.

Anyway, this should be a good one. And I have all Easter with nothing to do!
Steve C

Re: The Expanse is so cool that I opened this topic just for it

Post by Steve C » Sat Apr 15, 2017 3:13 am

I've been chomping at the bit to comment on this thread. (I could only load up the site with a proxy for the last 10 days.) I want to preface this to say I like Season 2. Each eps is good and worth watching when compared to nothing else in a vacuum (pun intended). Compared to the books, HOLY FUCK, the 2nd season is pissing me off. I'm not a purist. If you make a change, make sure it is an improvement. The books are far better. Season 1 of the show improved on the books in multiple places. It is possible. Season 2 cut out stuff that worked to add stuff that doesn't.

All the things they've changed from Caliban's War have not paid off. TV_Bobbie's arc faceplanted. I wasn't feeling it and did not think it was working. I gave it the benefit of the doubt that it was going to have a good payoff at the end. It didn't. It wrecked her character! In the book, it was all Earth. Mars was not responsible. They got blamed and pulled in but it wasn't them turning kids into weapons. Book_Bobbie was super loyal to Mars and has remained so for all the books. TV_Bobby beating up her superior officer then running to the UN? That's not an arc. That is the last thing Book_Bobbie would have done. Book_Bobbie's arc was overcoming her PTSD and fighting the monster round 2 comeback-style on Ganymede. (Which ain't happening now.) Martens was completely changed. He was a chaplain that was straight up helping Bobbie without any ulterior motives. I'm perfectly fine with the show rewriting Mars and Martens both into villains. He's just a minor character and TV_Bobbie isn't working through PTSD. I'm not fine with rewriting just to give him an idiot ball. Changing it so Mars was behind it all has added nothing.
Somebody on the writing staff either did not like the fact that a society with that extreeme social services is working and turned it into the message "government support for the unemployed is BAD
I think it was all that. I was on the fence before but the more I've thought about it the more I think it rubbed someone the wrong way. Or someone in a suit felt it would rub their demographic the wrong way. The cafe scene in the book simply works. It's one piece of Bobbie's arc of "Earth isn't the Enemy. Mars isn't the Enemy either. Being stupid, being paranoid, and trusting warmongers is the enemy. War is the enemy. Everyone has to unite against the common alien threat. That was the message of Caliban's War told through Bobbie's arc. None of that exists in the show.
4) I am not so fussed about the scene with Alex slingshotting the moons.
That was a straight up error. The people in charge put out a public apology before that eps aired. The basics were they could have had the same kind of visual sequence and it not be wrong. They screwed up when they picked a moon (Celine) due to the distances involved.
Haven't seen episode 12 yet but I have started reading Cibola Burn.
I'm willing to bet money that the show is going to completely skip Cibola Burn. The show might pull characters and interactions, but the setting... nope. Not going to happen. The show's strong suit is the indoor sets and production values. I don't think they can pull off on a budget what they need to make it work. Plus it is a kind of tangent to the book's larger narrative. That book could be easily cut.
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Andrew

Re: The Expanse is so cool that I opened this topic just for it

Post by Andrew » Sat Apr 15, 2017 6:18 am

Just saw episode 12 and all I have to say is.... "that's not your call, plant guy!".

I still don't think they're doing a very good job of conveying that what TV_Holden is doing now he is doing out of absolute fear of the protomolecule. The way it comes across to me is that he is just some dick swinging dude who is happy to shoot first and ask questions never. I'm not sure if they can resolve this season as there is only 1 episode left.... but, I'm not even sure if they are going to resolve it at all. The way they have played with the dynamics of the Roci crew makes me wonder if they prefer TV_Holden as an emotional version of TV_Amos. The only consistent character across both platforms is Naomi, and thank goodness for that!

We've talked so much about TV_Bobbie in this thread already I'm going to give her a pass tonight, if only because I barely even noticed her!

What I do want to touch on is TV_Errinwright and the political scene in season 2 in general. In Caliban's War, Corey goes into great detail explaining the nuances of the political scene and how every move you make is from the shadows even though all of the players know what you are up to. He explains how winning the politics game isn't necessarily about winning, in general, but more about destroying your opponent behind their back all the while smiling to their face. Everyone knows what you're up to and you know they know. And they know that you know that they know... and so on. It's subtle, tactful, and basically how I imagine things are actually done in most government's.

TV_politics is not that. It is so far from that that it is basically the exactly opposite. The major players this season - Avarasala, Errinwright and Jules-Pierre Mao - are not subtle in their actions. They are right in your face. These people are basically talking about their moves, WITH EACH OTHER. Everything is so out in the open that even TV_Bobbie knows what is going on and she is just about the most dense and clueless character in the entire series!

I fully subscribe to Steve's line of thinking that they should make all the changes they want so long as it improves the story. But for me, none of this is improving the story. Novel_politics was the best part of Caliban's War for me; TV_politics just makes my eyes glaze over.

Oh, TV_Errinwright. What a poor excuse of a character he is. He is not the political genius that Novel_Errinwright is. I'm not even sure if TV_Errinwright really knows what he is doing. His whole, putting himself at the mercy of Avasarala and then doing a complete about turn is akin to sitting on the crapper and having some grand epiphany about your life. Novel_Errinright was a real player. He never bowed to Avasarala. He never showed remorse, or regret over his actions, not even when it was clear that Avasarala had bested him. TV_Errinwright is a disgrace and I don't think the TV series would be any worse off if he didn't make it back for season 3.
Steve C wrote: Changing it so Mars was behind it all has added nothing.
Yes, I'm struggling to see what their end game here is. Is the series shifting towards all out war between Earth and Mars? Changing little things like this is so completely pointless (especially the way they are telling it and where it is headed - Ie, nowhere) it makes you think that they must have had some point for doing it in the first place. Hopefully it goes somewhere but I can't see it.

I also think that the TV series is hurting from the lack of time jumps that the Novels go through. It's sort of a rejuvenation for the characters and the setting each time around and it's something that the TV series sorely needs in my opinion. Just something to wash away a lot of season 2's dross so they can start afresh in season 3.
Steve C wrote:I'm willing to bet money that the show is going to completely skip Cibola Burn. The show might pull characters and interactions, but the setting... nope. Not going to happen. The show's strong suit is the indoor sets and production values. I don't think they can pull off on a budget what they need to make it work. Plus it is a kind of tangent to the book's larger narrative. That book could be easily cut.
You could be right on this. I obviously have no idea how Cibola Burn fits into the series as a whole but what I can see already is how hard it would be for them to produce a season (or even half a season) on Cibola Burn on a TV budget.

I'm loving it, so far, though. I'm about one-third of the way through and it's a magnificent story so far.

I can't quite place it just yet but reading about Ilus places me in the mind of the first time I watched Star Wars or the first time I played Mass Effect.
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4th Dimension

Re: The Expanse is so cool that I opened this topic just for it

Post by 4th Dimension » Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:11 am

Yeah the lack of timeskip is really hurting things I think. It especially hurts the Tycho/OPA side of things. The problem is for example that Fred is behaving in TV like a more agressive version of Book Fred, but Book Fred actually had political backing from the OPA actual and was an de facto head of state for the Outer Planets while TV Fred is merely someone who basically commandeered Tycho station for his own ideas.
I think, based on some spoilers from tvtropes, why they did this with Fred (light spoiler)at one point a faction of the OPA goes rogue and does some really bad things and why he is not a defacto undisputed leader and spokeperson for the OPA.

But yeah the entire politics angle is a wash. And season 1 showed, or maybe by accident, that it can do a good "cloak and dagger everyone is doing their own thing and you don't know what that is" story.

Another change I'm sort of miffed about is that in the books the UN capitol building is in Hague I think, which is nice IMO since it's not in Manhattan or something like on TV. Also in the book the UN people aren't a crossection of what America considers to be "ethnically diverse" (mostly white with couple darker skinned people and maybe one Japanese or Chinese person). In the books MOST if not all of the named characters (I think apart from Soren) are what some might refer to be brown people. It makes sense in an UN that is dawing on the collective manpower resources of humanity that the majority will be from Asia and Africa which makes sense given the current demographics. And I liked that.
I guess I should not blame the show, since coming up with that many nonwhite cast members might have been problematic, and some idiots might also accuse the show of showing the minorities to be underhanded and evil I guess, but IMO it still feels like whitewashing.


Book wise, I'm still on book two, and Bobbie just took the Aversala's guided cage ship from it's crew and TV wise I haven't wathced the recent episodes.
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Andrew

Re: The Expanse is so cool that I opened this topic just for it

Post by Andrew » Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:24 am

Watched the season 2 finale. It was much better than the previous 2 or 3 episodes although they've done it again. They ended the season about 3/4's of the way through Caliban's War which I just find to be such an odd decision, considering how much filler has been in the series. They could have easily brought it through to the end of Caliban's War, and the season probably would've been better for it because the story parts would have, presumably, replaced a lot of the dross.

Anyhow, I was saying how good the finale was? It really was.

It was basically a story split into three - the Roci, the Venus survey team and Avasarala, Bobbie and the security guy who's name I never learned. Let's call him Dick (I actually think it's Coulter, or Colyer, or something like that).

Starting from the bottom, the stuff with Avasarala, Bobbie and Dick was probably the weakest of the episode although it did give Bobbie more to do and a small bit of context to the relationship between Avasarala and Dick. The one thing I find a little unbelievable is just how quickly Bobbie was able to get into her power armour and get back down to where Avasarala and Dick were (and right on time, too!!). Caliban's War explains that it takes Bobbie upwards of 2 hours to get suited up but even without that bit of knowledge it's sorta hard to believe that scene as a whole. Aside from that, their finale was a bit meh.

The stuff with the Venus survey team really wasn't that spectacular either. But their scene(s) only lasted 2 or 3 minutes tops, and that's the only reason it was better than the previous scenes. I also question its relevance in this episode as it didn't even really setup Abaddon's Gate. But whatever... closure, I guess?

The stuff with the Roci was the best. I quite like how they depict the Protomolecule monster and there was a good bit of closure for all of the relationships between the crew of the Roci. Prax had a particularly stupid moment at the end though. Even if the Protomolecule moster WAS Mei, what was he really going to do? Not kill it? Let it kill him, Naomi and the rest of the Roci? No, of course not. Logically the whole sequence of events didn't really fit together very well and it seems like it was shot that way purely for nail biting tension purposes. But as a whole, I loved all of the stuff with the Roci in this episode so no REAL complaints other than that one small one.

And as far as the setup for Season 3 is concerned? I can see how anyone who is just watching the TV series would be all "Shit, what a setup for season 3!!" but from the perspective of someone who's read/reading the novels, it was all a little anti-climatic. From a reader's perspective, Holden had already given his sample of the Protomolecule to Fred Johnson for safekeeping, at the end of Leviathan's Wake! If I remember correctly, he didn't give him the code to open the safe that held the Protomolecule (or perhaps he couldn't because he didn't know what the code was? I forget), but the point is Fred Johnson and the OPA already had the Protomolecule in their possession and was actually what caused a lot of the tension between Holden and Johnson in Caliban's War because Holden immediately assumed that it was Johnson who was experimenting with the Protomolecule on Ganymede. Anyway, it's not a huge deal, I guess, but it was just all a little underwhelming as a hook for season 3 from my perspective.

With season 2 over and done with, The Expanse is still a great TV series and probably still the best sci-fi on TV at the moment, but season 2 has brought the series overall down from a 9 to about 7 or 7.5 in my eyes. Hopefully season 3 dispenses with a lot of the unnecessary stuff and gets their character development stuff in order.
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4th Dimension

Re: The Expanse is so cool that I opened this topic just for it

Post by 4th Dimension » Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:16 am

I kind of feel that the parts of the season 2 that were great are the parts that were still adapting the book 1. Pretty much the whole adaptation of the book 2 was problematic IMO.

In books Holden should not have the codes for that safe. Then again that is hardly going to stop the boffins of the Tycho station.

I don't know how the guy's name was spelled but in books he is a Kurd I think and is named Coutyar/Kotyar or something similar. So did Avirsala get to her meeting with Mao in space or are they still on Earth?
Steve C

Re: The Expanse is so cool that I opened this topic just for it

Post by Steve C » Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:25 pm

Andrew wrote:They ended the season about 3/4's of the way through Caliban's War which I just find to be such an odd decision, considering how much filler has been in the series. They could have easily brought it through to the end of Caliban's War, and the season probably would've been better for it because the story parts would have, presumably, replaced a lot of the dross.
The showrunner explained why they cut the seasons up the way they did in a podcast interview. He didn't want it to be a self contained story in a single season where people watch it, enjoy it, then forget about the show when it comes back in a year. "Always leave them wanting more" showbiz kind of rationale.
4th Dimension wrote:So did Avirsala get to her meeting with Mao in space or are they still on Earth?
She did. Along with Cotyar (I looked up the spelling) and TV_Bobbie. Honestly I hated those scenes compared to the book. The book setup was different, Mao wasn't on the ship, it was in deep space traveling to Ganymede etc. That was all fine to change though. It was TV_Bobbie and the director I had issue with (again.)

It was super awesome how book_Bobbie took over the ship. Very Ironman-esk in a nothing-you-do-can-hurt-me kind of way. It was great. It was kind of a puzzle for book_Bobbie to solve since her greatest concern while in her suit was accidentally destroying the ship while the crew acted frantically. That would have made for much better TV! It didn't evolve into a firefight and standoff. The heroes were in a gilded cage with nobody at the door pointing guns. Why would they? It's still a fucking spaceship so the bad guys don't need to pull guns when they control the air. Something they forgot on the TV show which really pissed me off. It created all this fake TV drama and did that drama badly when there was no need. It also gave a second idiot ball. There's no way Avasarala would have left the armor behind. They made sure it and Bobbie were always in the same room so they had an ace in the hole. It's like the previous scene from eps11 with the grenade through the door. Where everyone stops and listens to the confusing chaos happening on the other side. That's straight from the book and they did it perfectly on the show too. Redoing that for TV (because action!!!) would have been a big mistake. That kind of mistake is what they ended up doing with every Earth scene.

Then there all sorts of lame stuff with TV_Bobbie. Like when she cringed when the elevator came. Guess if hadn't luckily stopped there she would have simply died? Or the chat with the electrician. Both scenes would have been far more effective scene if TV_Bobbie was in her power armor when that happened. Or if the soldiers she beat up were shorter actors to emphasize her size and physicality. Frankie Adams (the actor) can handle the scenes. Whoever has been directing her scenes needs to be fired for season 3.

Like 4th Dimension said, pretty much the whole adaptation of the book 2 was problematic IMO. From interviews I've gathered the writing staff changed a fair amount between seasons 1 & 2. It needs to change again. They can do better, much better. They've proved that.
Steve C

Re: The Expanse is so cool that I opened this topic just for it

Post by Steve C » Sat Apr 22, 2017 1:07 am

4th Dimension wrote:There is no need for the Exploration Ship Venus plot that is currently going on.
Steve C wrote:As for the science vessel (it's a hard science and research vessel rather than an exploration vessel) it is going to have Adam Savage on it as a cameo. I'm going to guess that when he is on screen then something interesting is going to happen. It will be soon.
So was I right? Did you find that interesting? I looked forward to it the whole season. It didn't disappoint.
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4th Dimension

Re: The Expanse is so cool that I opened this topic just for it

Post by 4th Dimension » Sun Apr 23, 2017 3:13 pm

I finally watched the last two episodes, and I have to say I don't think really I liked much any of it. Prax was acting like a fucking idiot. While he did have a one track mind in the books too here he was being a god damned moron. In the books also he was the smart guy that was figuring out what is the plan with the kids and the "monster". Monster was also kind of dumb IMO. That is probably budgetary constraints and CGI but it felt too plastic? From the books ai got this image of a almost bubbling horror that can spawn limbs at whim and curls up into a ball when inactive. But here he just looks like a Geth husk. And handling the core of the nuke by hand.

Did like the graphics that showed the fate of the Venus ship though.

Politics on Earth weren't good neither. Erenwright personally poissons the Martian delegate?!? WTF is he thinking that is going to accomplish. He is not his entire government?!? That is the same stupid thinking that made Martens be in on the whole plan when he really didn't need to be EVEN if his job was be the leash on Bobby.
Bobby has been pretty much character assasinated that is something we agree so I won't go farther into it.
I'm glad that that Aversala's assistant is Cotyar and not Soren, but they had to give him some Soren's traits to create more unnecessary drama with Bobbie.

But do you know what takes the cake in my oppinion?
Holden, threathening the combined fleets of Mars and UN with destruction while he rides on a frigate.... WTF Holden, you are on a state of art ship, but you are not on an unique supership. Mars has dozens of those. HELL they probably have some of those around Ganymede. WTF are you thinking?

The Belter speech did kind of work even though the situation was still stupid.

Oh oh oh, Fred Jonson apparently left the Tychoo station to PERSONALLY pick up the protomolecule off the missile by spacewalking himself to it. Like he has nothing better to do.

And if I want to nitpick, Bobbie is short compared to her Book counterpart.
Steve C

Re: The Expanse is so cool that I opened this topic just for it

Post by Steve C » Mon Apr 24, 2017 12:07 am

I'm right there with everything you wrote.
4th Dimension wrote:But do you know what takes the cake in my oppinion?
Holden, threathening the combined fleets of Mars and UN with destruction while he rides on a frigate.... WTF Holden, you are on a state of art ship, but you are not on an unique supership. Mars has dozens of those. HELL they probably have some of those around Ganymede. WTF are you thinking?
I thought it worked well enough. It could have been better. Like making it clear in the broadcast that it was suicide but still worth it. Something like "I will destroy the first ship that fires on those defenseless refugees. It will be the last thing I do, but make no mistake it will be the last thing YOU do too."

I don't remember the specifics of how the book handled that scene. I do know that Holden publicly identified himself as OPA and gave his name. To everyone else he is the famous/infamous self-righteous James Holden best known for making good his threats and starting wars. So it wouldn't even be an issue in the book. So again, it is a scene in the TV show that doesn't quite work because of a change (Holden isn't famous and isn't representing OPA) made for reasons that don't have a payoff. This season has been fraught with those.
And if I want to nitpick, Bobbie is short compared to her Book counterpart.
I'm not going to nitpick that. I think that's fair. I will nitpick that the show didn't try to compensate for it using camera angles, perspective shots and other little tricks in order to emphasize Bobbie's size. She could be wearing shoes while the actor she is speaking to is barefoot. The only person Bobbie needs to loom over would be Aversala and she can be sitting for most of that, or Frankie on a box.

That is one of my nitpicks of the show in general. Of course they can't find 7ft tall actors to play Belters. But they certainly could have found 5ft tall actors to play the few Earthers that have to interact with Belters. Most of the scenes with both Earthers and Belters are just mooks to be shot anyway.
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4th Dimension

Re: The Expanse is so cool that I opened this topic just for it

Post by 4th Dimension » Mon Apr 24, 2017 6:32 am

Oh yeah that could work, but that is not what he does. He goes "You are fully aware what this ship can do" as if Rossie is a supership which it's not you dumbnut, Mars has like a flotilla of those. Then he makes it worse by saying that "If you open fire on [me and the ship I'm protecting] I will target ALL of you and we will ALL go down together", no you fucking imbecile, you might be able to smash an UN ship or two but by then you will be an expanding cloud of dust from all the ordinance that will be coming your way.

I don't remember if Holden actually announced himself when he was leaving the Ganymede. I don't know why would he since in the books he wasn't shepherding refugees, but was in a full mad scramble driven by fear to run away from the protomolecule.

As for Bobbie, yeah I understand that ans that is why I'm calling it a nitpick. If Bobbie wasn't character assasinated I wouldn't mind but now that I'm pissed...
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4th Dimension

Re: The Expanse is so cool that I opened this topic just for it

Post by 4th Dimension » Thu Apr 27, 2017 1:39 pm

I have started reading the Abadon Gate, and I have to say I don't particulary care about the whole Clarissa plot or the Behemoth. They seem stupid to me. They aren't badly written, but I dislike the type of stories Clarissa's one is, and the going ons on the Behemot so far seem stupid. And I especially don't like them when there is a MUCH more interesting thing right next to them, the RING.
Steve C

Re: The Expanse is so cool that I opened this topic just for it

Post by Steve C » Fri Apr 28, 2017 2:11 am

Yeah Abadon's Gate was my least favorite of the set for the reasons you mention.

BTW I believe Holden's threat that they "will all go down together" was more about the circumstances. There are two fleets of warships both in an aggressive stance. Once bullets and torpedoes start flying then all shit is going to happen at once. They will all shoot at each other if Holden starts. That said, it is still badly worded. I'm not defending how it was written. I'm condemning it more since we both should have come to the same conclusion. Yet again a section was added for a payoff that didn't happen. It could have been worth it if was done better.
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Andrew

Re: The Expanse is so cool that I opened this topic just for it

Post by Andrew » Fri Apr 28, 2017 10:06 am

Yup agree with the above as well. Abaddon's Gate is clearly the worst of the books I have read so far.

It's not just that Clarrisa's arc is stupid and ultimately pointless, but Anna is just the dullest character that Corey has written in my opinion.

To be fair, Bull did grow on me towards the end and the Behemoth is important to the overall story. It's just the people in the story who don't live up to expectation.

The good news is though I'm now half way through Cibola Burn and it is still as good as I initially thought it was. Probably on par with Caliban's War for me and just a little bit below Leviathan's Wake.
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4th Dimension

Re: The Expanse is so cool that I opened this topic just for it

Post by 4th Dimension » Fri Apr 28, 2017 11:19 am

Actually so far at least, it's early in the book, Anna's path so me shows most promise, because it could lead to thinking about humanity and God's place in an universe where protomolecule is a thing and how different faiths might respond to it. On the other hand I don't think the writer is capable of that.
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Andrew

Re: The Expanse is so cool that I opened this topic just for it

Post by Andrew » Fri Apr 28, 2017 12:01 pm

4th Dimension wrote:Actually so far at least, it's early in the book, Anna's path so me shows most promise, because it could lead to thinking about humanity and God's place in an universe where protomolecule is a thing and how different faiths might respond to it. On the other hand I don't think the writer is capable of that.
He certainly tries, if it helps!!
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4th Dimension

Re: The Expanse is so cool that I opened this topic just for it

Post by 4th Dimension » Sun May 21, 2017 10:02 pm

I finished the Abaddon's gate a while ago, and I'm sitting here not exactly sure what to say.

I guess I have to say I didn't enjoy it much in the end. I ESPECIALLY don't like the fact that the resolution hinged essentially on luck. A disturbed person jumping one way when she could have easily done so the other way. I simply don't like the plots where the protagonists win basically through luck. And could have EASILY lost if a sequence of coincedences did not happen, which makes their victory unconvincing.
Also the whole mutiny and how well it went right up until the random action in the end was unsatisfactory to me. And now that I think of it, adding the battle armor just to drive further the pointlessness/impossibility of resisting does not sit that well with me. To have the fate of humanity hinge on like three suits of armor that for some reason a significant portion of the crew of the B can not defeat is bonkers to me. They should have had some heavy weapons on hand for that. They aren't an essentially civvie ship with corporate security types on board. They were on a battleship of a nation. A poor one, but one to whoom the problem of countering Martian battle armor should have occured. Then again I guess all of those were locked up in all of the armories that the mutineers were so efficient at seizing. So again, I don't like the pointless stupid human infighting.

Anna was fine for me. I don't see how she is stupid character. She might have a worldview that might seem strange, but that is who she is.
The reaction to the station and it's abilities is kind of fine, but I still can't accept that the old cap would have been willing to die to complete the plan, and nobody back on Earth to know about it, given all we have seen of him. And he is kind of a disservice to the opposition on the B. Then again I was wondering why nobody was remarking how fucking unlikely was it that a simple laser at human tech level would be able to do fucking ANYTHING to anything built by the precursors. I mean we are talking about a civilization whose traffic AI is able to change the maximum speed of macro objects. And the idea that we could make a laser that can somehow blow up a structure as big as one of the rings is also silly now that I think of it. The laser is fine I guess at the kind of point blank ranges all of the ships were around the station, but we are talking about hitting an object, most of which is empty at MUCH greater ranges.

Oh and non involvement of the rest of the fleet was also wierd, once it was apparent that B was undergoing a coup. You do not want an unstable change of government in the last armed ship in the fleet.

So I guess no I did not like the book much. I liked the parts dealing with the Ring and the civ that built it and such.



And now I'm sitting at the begging of Cybola Burn and allready I'm not liking things and am thinking hard if I should continue.
The thing that pissed me off was that the settlers that arrived first on an UNCLAIMED and EMPTY world and built a colony there with their own resources are being called squatters?!?! HOW THE FUCK can they be squatters/illegals!?!? Does UN claim the ownership of the entire FUCKING universe which would give it a charter to IMPOSE governors and such on any independent colony? FUCK THAT NOISE. Also, if UN also wants a piece of that planet, why drop their colony on top of some Belters among which there are CERTAINLY going be people who will not take lightly to UN. You have an entire FUCKING planet at disposal. Land ANYWHERE! You are unlikely to even live next to each other in like a century given that it's an ENTIRE PLANET. And there are more of them.

I guess they wanted to use local labor to help them jumpstart their colony but that makes the entire problem even more hypocritical. And in general giving corporations the reign in setting up future human colonies also rubs me wrong. But I guess that's just the world of Expanse for you.
Steve C

Re: The Expanse is so cool that I opened this topic just for it

Post by Steve C » Sun May 21, 2017 11:16 pm

I'm pretty sure the squatters thing is based directly on Australia. Settlers went to Australia first. Before any kind of government. They set up farms. Then later the government said they were squatting on government land. People got angry. It was a thing. The Expanse's take is pretty believable.
BTW I had exactly the same issues with Abaddon's Gate that you did.
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Andrew

Re: The Expanse is so cool that I opened this topic just for it

Post by Andrew » Mon May 22, 2017 1:20 am

There really isn't much more to say about Abaddon's Gate. From what I have read of the whole series so far it really is the weakest link. The stuff that advances the protomolecule story is, of course, interesting, but the B plot (or is it the A plot??) with the Behemoth just doesn't seem to strike a chord with anyone I know who has read it.
4th Dimension wrote:Anna was fine for me. I don't see how she is stupid character
I'm not sure if that was aimed at a few things I have said about Anna or not but I'll note for the record that I never called her stupid. I said that she was dull and boring, but never stupid. Pretty huge difference, really.
4th Dimension wrote:And now I'm sitting at the begging of Cybola Burn and allready I'm not liking things and am thinking hard if I should continue.
I would say stick with it, if you can. You may not like the overall setting but the individual characters (who are not the crew of the Roci as they are the only constant, as always) really bring the story up a notch. There is some silly, mustache twirling, evil with one of the "bad guys" but other than that, I found it very good. A huge about-turn from what Abaddon's Gate produced.
4th Dimension wrote:You have an entire FUCKING planet at disposal. Land ANYWHERE! You are unlikely to even live next to each other in like a century given that it's an ENTIRE PLANET. And there are more of them.
The novel does mention that Ilus has one of the largest deposits of... a mineral... that they have ever seen which is why the planet (and that particular location, specifically) is so valuable. I want to say it's a P mineral. Platinum? No, I don't think so. Titanium, maybe. Either way, whatever it is, it is the reason that this planet, and this specific location, is so sought after. The UN want it for the minerals and the Belters want the minerals so they can sell it and then buy stuff to further develop their colony.

Now, I'm not saying this makes the story perfect - not by any stretch - but the reasoning and the explanation is there.
Steve C wrote:I'm pretty sure the squatters thing is based directly on Australia. Settlers went to Australia first. Before any kind of government. They set up farms. Then later the government said they were squatting on government land. People got angry. It was a thing. The Expanse's take is pretty believable.
I'm not sure what country you're thinking of but that's not Australia.

The settlers who went to Australia (the British) went there with the notion of using Australia as a penal colony but the overall expansion into an ordered country was never quite so dramatic as what we see in Cibola Burn. For one, I am not aware of any infighting amongst the initial British settlers and the later British colonists where both parties claimed the land as their own and completely refuted the other's.

And this is all two steps ahead anyway. Before the British ever came to Australia, there was an indigenous population already living there. The conflict you are referring to MIGHT be that when the British first came to Australia they immediately claimed ownership of the land and completely disregarded the indigenous populations earlier claim to the land. Over the course of the next 50 years they systematically killed and re-located the indigenous population to the benefit of their own expansion.

In that regard, I guess there is a slight link to Australia's history and the story told in Cibola Burn, but with a pretty big difference that the Belters in Cibola Burn are not native to Ilus - they may not necessarily be squatters either, but they were certainly not native and had no more right to the planet than the UN did other than the fact that they arrived there first.

That all being said, I do very much agree that the story in Cibola Burn is a realistic one that has happened on numerous occasions in Earth's history and, to a certain extent, is still occurring today.
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