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Re: Star trek

Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 2:28 pm
by Daemian Lucifer
The way of the warrior!No,not the HammerFall song,the ds9 episode.Though I am humming the song every time I read that title.

Anyway,klingons may have been turned into stereotypes by trek after the original,but I liked most of the episodes with them.This two parter is no exception.

Also,comparing hu-mans to root beer is so funny.Its always great how well crafted the observations of these two outsiders about humans are.

Re: Star trek

Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 3:38 pm
by John
It's funny. I was so outraged when DS9 introduced the Klingon plot and brought Worf on to the show. I considered it a tastless and transparent grab for ratings and I was afraid that the Bajoran and Cardassian stories I liked so much would fall by the way-side in the newer, more action-packed DS9. In retrospect, I'm not entirely sure whether that happened or not. There were still Bajoran and Cardassian stories, many of them quite good. But the context in which those stories took place changed quite a bit, and the Bajoran episodes in particular lost a little something in the process. In the first few seasons, in episodes like the first-season finale or the multi-part "The Circle", it's clear that while the Cardassians are still dangerous the Bajorans are now their own greatest enemies. I thought it was fascinating to watch the Bajorans try to put together a stable, effective, and forward-looking government amidst the aftermath of generations of oppression by the Cardassians. I really wanted those crazy kids to make it, you know? But once the Klingons showed up and the shooting started, episodes about Bajoran politics became less common and tended to emphasize Bajor's precarious position as a small, independent planet near a strategic wormhole actively contested by the galaxy's Great Powers. That said, there were still some excellent episodes about Bajoran society and culture, my favorite being when an ancient Bajoran poet comes out of the wormhole and is horrified to discover that Bajoran society is no longer caste-based. I think that the Dominion war plot was definitely good for Cardassian episodes, as it brought us such arcs as "Gul Dukat, Freedom Fighter" and "Damar, Resistance Leader." ("Yes, Damar. What kind of people would do that?") Oh. Yeah. And the Klingon stuff was okay too. Disappointed as I was by the turn the series took, even at the time I had to admit that the fourth season had what was probably the series' best to-that-point--and in hindsight perhaps best-ever--average episode quality.

Re: Star trek

Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:13 pm
by Daemian Lucifer
The "It was all just a dream" is often considered to be the worst kind of a story you can make.Which is warranted.But then,there are stories like the visitor,which is essentially just a dream that no one will know anything about(except it will very loosely impact The Sisko).And yet,its a great story.Because its not about that alternate future,not about that dream.Its a character story,an exploration of loss,hope,and (not) dealing with grief.

Re: Star trek

Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 2:43 pm
by Daemian Lucifer
Trills were always interesting to me,even though trek does not explore such a species in any actual depth.And anyway,goa'uld are the (slightly) less ridiculous parasite of that kind.But there are a few trill episodes that got etched deep in my brain.Rejoined is one of them.I liked it back then as a teen*.But now that Im older and have actually experienced such a thing,both from the inside and the outside,I like it even more.Though I wish the supporting cast were a bit more proactive.It really sucks being in such a situation,but thats precisely when you need your friends to push you that little bit extra.

In fact,a great parallel can be drawn between rejoined and hippocratic oath.Miles may have done a terrible thing in that one,but he was precisely the kind of friend julian needed at that moment.

*No,not because of the lesbian kiss.That was never my thing.

Re: Star trek

Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 12:07 pm
by Daemian Lucifer
Ahhh 90s.The time when you could pull all sorts of stunt on tv,like a conspiracy theory to turn earth into a police state after a major bombing attack.Or a prime minister who used to be a terrorist and so knows that "You cant negotiate with terrorists!".Such simpler times those days.

The odo kira thing though...Its actually good at times,as long as they arent focusing on it.Though the julian/miles bromance is way better.Probably the best the franchise ever did.

Re: Star trek

Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 5:31 pm
by Wide And Nerdy
Daemian Lucifer wrote:Ahhh 90s.The time when you could pull all sorts of stunt on tv,like a conspiracy theory to turn earth into a police state after a major bombing attack.Or a prime minister who used to be a terrorist and so knows that "You cant negotiate with terrorists!".Such simpler times those days.

The odo kira thing though...Its actually good at times,as long as they arent focusing on it.Though the julian/miles bromance is way better.Probably the best the franchise ever did.
I think when we look for best buddy/romantic pairing, we overlook the obvious because we're looking at the B characters. But Kirk, Spock, and Bones were quite a trio. The fate of the ship often hung on how they interacted, and it grew to be more than just them doing their logos, pathos, ego thing.

Re: Star trek

Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 6:16 pm
by Steve C
That's The original Star Trek's trio was based on the Id, Superego, & Ego.* Where as Star Trek:TNG was based on the three stages of a man's life: the teen, (Wesley) the man in his prime (Riker) and the experienced older man (Picard). That's was the authorial intent by Gene Roddenberry. It was explained in one of the Trek documentaries. I believe it was the relatively recent one where Shatner airs the dirty laundry of the writing staff. (Chaos on the Bridge? maybe?) Though personally I think TOS works better specifically as Ethos, Pathos and Logos.

It really shows when there's a solid framework like this behind it or not with the more recent Sci-fi ensemble shows. I don't believe the work itself needs it, (TNG ditched it after Roddenberry left, and was better for it) but the writers benefit from having a framework. For example Defenders didn't have it. It could have and it would have been better for it. SG-1 had it too. Then when RDA left they didn't have it anymore. Not because he left, but when Ben Browder joined the group dynamic of the pragmatist, the ideologue, the scientist and the warrior was truly broken. The Ori seasons were missing the spark that drove the show. Having a framework forces the writers to justify each scene in terms of a larger context.

Re: Star trek

Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 1:49 pm
by Daemian Lucifer
Wide And Nerdy wrote: I think when we look for best buddy/romantic pairing, we overlook the obvious because we're looking at the B characters.
I never saw the three as anything other than great friends.But with julian and miles,theres definitely a tinge of romance involved as well.

As for things one would never expect to hear from star trek:"Thats the thing with faith.If you dont have it,you dont understand it.If you have it,you dont require an explanation.".And to have a false prophet thats not malicious on top of that.Deep space 9 is a really weird show like that.

Also,the way time travel works in star trek,people still remember the past as it was before it got changed.Which makes me wonder:Why did kirk find it fit to change the name of berenstein bears?

Re: Star trek

Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 4:24 pm
by John
Daemian Lucifer wrote:I never saw the three as anything other than great friends.But with julian and miles,theres definitely a tinge of romance involved as well.
Well, that's understandable. Chief O'Brien possesses an irresistible sexual charisma. To wit:
  • That Bajoran operations tech in the first season,
  • pregnant Kira,
  • that Cardassian scientist,
  • and probably more that I can't recall just now.
It's only natural that Julian would be curious.

And, Daemian, you may not see Kirk and Spock's relationship as a sexual one--I don't either, for that matter--but there are legions of fanfic writers who did and probably still do. (The big shipper wars of the TOS era were probably Kirk/Spock versus Kirk/Enterprise.)

Re: Star trek

Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 5:42 pm
by Daemian Lucifer
There are slashfics of everything.The winchester brothers,for example.Picard and the borg(not the queen,and not seven).Neelix with someone other than his hand.And even more horrible images than those.That doesnt mean something is there however.

As for kirk/enterprise,thats not a slashfic,thats canon.There was that episode with a woman who made every man lust for her,except for kirk,because he is married to his ship.

Re: Star trek

Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 5:44 pm
by Daemian Lucifer
Ah rules an engagement.Also known as the one with the klingon lawyer.And I like that.I like the episodes where they have klingons who arent just fighters.Its a much more interesting culture when they can have scientists who see the pursuit of knowledge as a battle against the unknown,and lawyers who wage wars with words.Also,klingon concept of honor being winning in many battles does make them a bit more alien.

The episode was also shot in a very interesting way,what with people telling a story while being in a flashback.And of course,the ending sisko talk,where he tells worf that even though publicly he will always be on his side,in private he will still punish him for his mistakes.But while furious,The SIsko is also a forgiving god,willing to not punish those who learn from their mistakes.

But there are a few curious things that this episode brings up.Miles obrien,a technician,has been in over 200 combat situations.For an organization that constantly keeps reminding everyone that they are not a military,they have fought quite a lot.Now of course,that doesnt mean they arent a noble organization.A military that fights only defensively* and to protect unarmed people is a noble one.But its still a military.They may call themselves whatever they wish,but a spade is a spade,even if you wish to label it a spoon.

*Lets ignore all the times that they did not do that,because its not relevant now.

Re: Star trek

Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:26 pm
by John
Daemian Lucifer wrote:Miles O'Brien, a technician, has been in over 200 combat situations.
O'Brien hasn't always been a technician. In the TNG episode that established his Cardassian war background (one of those Starfleet captains gone rogue episodes) it was strongly implied--and perhaps even explicitly stated, though I can't remember well enough to be certain--that he served on the bridge, perhaps as some sort of tactical officer, during the war. Of course, TNG was rather, um, inconsistent about a great many O'Brien-related facts, such as his exact rank and even whether or not he was an officer. Anyway, as a person who served on a Starfleet vessel during a protracted war, it isn't surprising that O'Brien's saw a lot of combat. The cook on that ship technically saw a lot of combat. I mean, the cook has (I assume) no combat-related duties, but as long as he was on the ship during combat he's "been in a combat situation".

You are right, though, that Starfleet is a military. They don't like to admit it, but they're organized like a military and have too many combat-capable vessels to be anything else.

Re: Star trek

Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:50 pm
by Supahewok
There wasn't any confusion over whether O'Brian was an officer or not. He was always called Chief, as in Chief Petty Officer, an enlisted Naval Non-Commisioned Officer. The distinction between enlisted and commissioned is well-known in real life, and is brought up several times in TNG (off the top of my head I can recall the first time Worf's parents visited him, and O'Brian chatted about it with Worf's father).

What the show *was* always unclear on, was the actual operational differences between enlisted and commissioned officers. There effectively wasn't any as far as I can recall. Just as TNG was always muddled on the distinction between civilian and military personnel on the Enterprise, as it liked to say how Starfleet wasn't military but it had military ranks, and sometimes scientists and doctors had military ranks and sometimes they didn't (like, I think Bashir in DS9 had rank but I don't think Beverly did in TNG), and sometimes the captain had oversight on civilian activities and sometimes didn't. TNG ran on the bare basics of "the main cast have their hierarchy and anything beyond that is up to the whims of the writer of the episode."

Re: Star trek

Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 12:32 am
by John
What I meant is that early in TNG, back when O'Brien could have been pretty much anybody, he seemed to have a different set of collar pips each time he showed up--and they were all officer's pips, too, because non-commissioned personnel hadn't been invented yet.

Re: Star trek

Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 11:56 am
by krellen
Supahewok wrote:I think Bashir in DS9 had rank but I don't think Beverly did in TNG
Beverly Crusher was a Commander and qualified to command the bridge. She and Troi talk about taking the qualification exam in the episode where Troi is doing so.

Re: Star trek

Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:49 pm
by JadedDM
Yeah, I think Miles being a non-com was a bit of a retcon. In the very first episode of TNG, he wore an ensign's pip. Then later he is seen wearing a lieutenant's pips and is even called 'lieutenant' by Riker at one point.

Re: Star trek

Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 8:03 pm
by Daemian Lucifer
Poor obrien.He always had the worst luck.Ive just watched hard time,the episode where he is mind raped into thinking he was in prison for 20 years.The gamma quadrant has the worst races in it.

Also,its stories like this one that make me always at least annoyed if not downright angry whenever any sf plays mind control for laughs.Mind control is the worst thing you can do to a sapient person,worse than death even.You can use it for dark humor,sure,but dark humor requires you to acknowledge that the joke you are telling would be horrible in reality,like rick and morty.

Re: Star trek

Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 3:01 am
by JadedDM
I think the writers of DS9 openly enjoyed tormenting poor Miles. He had the worst luck. Seems like horrifying things were always happening to him.

Re: Star trek

Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 10:52 am
by Ringwraith
They actually discussed this, they mentioned he did such a good job at engendering empathy from the audience, there's a yearly "O'Brien Must Suffer" episode to take full advantage of this.

Re: Star trek

Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:01 pm
by Daemian Lucifer
Ds9 subverts all of the established trek tropes.The muse is an episode where lwaxana is not the bad part.Thats astonishing.No wonder I forgot that she appeared in ds9.She was in one ok episode,one bad and one forgettable.

Re: Star trek

Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 1:18 pm
by Daemian Lucifer
Ill go backwards a bit this time:
Doctor bashir nearly throwing a stone into the great link is one of the funniest little scenes in trek.

The quickening episode has a stupid name,but is a damn good episode.Especially the end where bashir,who has achieved a nearly impossible thing in beating the founders in their genetics game,is still beating himself over not saving even more people.

The quark episode was amusing.Practically all of the ferengi episodes are.Its interesting how practically all the aliens on the station are outcast from their races.And the most interesting thing is how those outcasts end up at the end of the show.

Also its nice that they found a new role for Jeffrey Combs.Weyoun is such an interesting little weasel.Id like it if they had Combs in discovery as well.

Re: Star trek

Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 1:51 pm
by Daemian Lucifer
Nor the battle to the strong.One of the many "War is bad,mkay" episodes of ds9.All of them are good,all of them are terrible to watch because war IS bad.And another episode that subverts expectations because this is a story not about heroes,but about cowards.Yet it doesnt condemn cowardice,because majority of people thrust into combat would act just like jake.

Re: Star trek

Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 12:14 am
by Andrew
If anyone is interested, Star Trek Discovery starts with a double episode some time today.

Re: Star trek

Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 12:55 am
by Supahewok
What a coincidence. I just started watching TOS while playing GalCiv 2 on a whim. I expected it to be hokey and cornball, but... it's actually really good. I didn't think it'd be bad, but I'd been warned about it being old-fashioned, so finding it genuinely good by modern standards was a shock to my expectations. Like, the acting is good. The sets are good within their limitations. The stories are good, at least up to Episode 8, although it's being a little repetitive with themes on the nature of humanity.

Re: Star trek

Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 1:14 am
by Daemian Lucifer
Supahewok wrote: so finding it genuinely good by modern standards was a shock to my expectations. .
That was basically my experience with old doctor who.But there is a reason why old who and original trek are considered classic.The only old fashioned thing about the two shows is the costumes and some sets.But their stories hold up even today,and probably will hold up for many more decades.

There are only two episodes Id advise you to skip:
The end of season 2,assignment earth isnt even a trek episode at all.It was a pilot for some other show that uses trek cast as cameos.
Late season 3 episode the way to eden is the most boring thing Ive ever seen.It isnt even fun bad as some other episodes that I would definitely recommend.

As for discovery,my opinion hasnt changed.Ill give it a try.I dont expect anything particularly bad from it,nor anything particularly good.Plus,after seeing orville,Im all good about trek getting a modern revival,even if it has a different name.