Star trek

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Steve C

Re: Star trek

Postby Steve C » Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:46 pm

They could have neatly avoided the problem of having magic tech by forcing them to ration their magic.
Baryon particles. Done.
They have to ration magic tech because they have no ability to do a periodic baryon sweep at a starbase. All tech remains available. Except Janeway is slowly killing the crew.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Star trek

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:55 pm

krellen wrote: But a need to turn Trek from a 50 million dollar franchise to a 500 million dollar franchise corrupted its heart to appeal to a more mass audience.


I dont think its the money.I think its just that the times changed.Both tng and ds9 had plenty of stellar episodes that were made on a shoestring budget,and both are great shows,but the charm of the original was never reached again(maaaybe in the episode with scotty and the one with tribbles).But tng and ds9 at least showed their love for the original.The other two....and the new movies*......Yeeaaaahhh...

krellen wrote: The danger of truly loving niche products is very few people are satisfied having their products remain niche.


I dont mind them stop being niche however.I still maintain that old who is far superior to the new,but I can enjoy both.I can enjoy tos,tng and ds9 as a loosely connected universe,even though the feel of all three is radically different.But then,growing up I was reading a bunch of Asimov,and his great experiment of trying to connect all these different stories into a single universe has made me appreciate things that dont fit together still being lumped together.

*Still havent seen the third one,even though everyone keeps saying its the best one.I just needed a break after wrath of khan 2.
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John

Re: Star trek

Postby John » Wed Jul 12, 2017 9:25 pm

krellen wrote:I will never forgive Rick Berman for what he did to my idealistic scifi setting. Most of you probably shouldn't like Star Trek, because it shouldn't be a show for you (there's plenty of other shows for you out there!) But a need to turn Trek from a 50 million dollar franchise to a 500 million dollar franchise corrupted its heart to appeal to a more mass audience.

The danger of truly loving niche products is very few people are satisfied having their products remain niche.

I'm pretty sure that you and I have had this argument before, but Star Trek has never been quite as idealistic as it likes to proclaim loudly that it is. Rather than get in to all of that again, I'll just say that there's value in contrasting the Starfleet/Federation viewpoint with other viewpoints and doing so in a non-preachy way. (As much as I love them, Kirk and Picard can be utterly condescending some times.) If, say, Voyager had featured the Maquis crew members gradually coming to embrace Starfleet ideals after seeing those ideas succeed in action, well, that would have been pretty cool. (For all I know this occasionally did happen in the 6.5 seasons I didn't watch when one of the writers suddenly remembered that the Maquis existed.) And that seems pretty idealistic to me.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Star trek

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Wed Jul 12, 2017 9:38 pm

John wrote: (As much as I love them, Kirk and Picard can be utterly condescending some times.)


Kirk wasnt.Yes he did sometimes say "Humans did this and that in the past",but never in a condescending "we are perfection" tone like picard.The humans of the original series were still flawed.But they admitted those flaws and worked to overcome them.Tng did that in some episodes(mostly later),but in the majority of the first episodes they were smug assholes(cosmic plan riker?Seriously??Thats still the dumbest line of the entire franchise for me).
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Wide And Nerdy

Re: Star trek

Postby Wide And Nerdy » Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:49 pm

Daemian Lucifer wrote:
John wrote: (As much as I love them, Kirk and Picard can be utterly condescending some times.)


Kirk wasnt.Yes he did sometimes say "Humans did this and that in the past",but never in a condescending "we are perfection" tone like picard.The humans of the original series were still flawed.But they admitted those flaws and worked to overcome them.Tng did that in some episodes(mostly later),but in the majority of the first episodes they were smug assholes(cosmic plan riker?Seriously??Thats still the dumbest line of the entire franchise for me).


Its a tribute to Patrick Stewart that we like the Picard character in spite of him being so smug and self important especially in the early seasons. You know you've overdone it when you can have your newly introduced character of the episode call Picard a "pompous ass" and still find her likable. She was exactly right in Measure of a Man. Definitely one of TNG's best single episode characters.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Star trek

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:17 pm

Wide And Nerdy wrote:Its a tribute to Patrick Stewart that we like the Picard character in spite of him being so smug and self important especially in the early seasons.


True.But also,they did manage to rectify most of the flaws they had with the early seasons.Heck,I actually complimented some of the later prime directive episodes,and those are the worst of the lot.And while the arc of the show was revolving around q judging humanity,my head canon is that q saw how smug the humans have become and chose the worst of the lot to get them back on the right track.

Chuck said one thing about ds9 once that also applies to tng:"The audience hates our character.Whats wrong with us?"
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JadedDM

Re: Star trek

Postby JadedDM » Thu Jul 13, 2017 7:22 pm

John wrote:If, say, Voyager had featured the Maquis crew members gradually coming to embrace Starfleet ideals after seeing those ideas succeed in action, well, that would have been pretty cool. (For all I know this occasionally did happen in the 6.5 seasons I didn't watch when one of the writers suddenly remembered that the Maquis existed.) And that seems pretty idealistic to me.

Nah. The Maquis were fully absorbed into Starfleet by the end of the first episode. Granted, most of them had been former Starfleet officers, but the transition happened so fully and so quickly that one does wonder why they bothered with it at all in the first place.

I remember one episode later on where it was discovered that Tuvok had an old, secret holodeck program that trains his security officers on how to deal with things if the Maquis ever decided to turn on the crew. It was never used, and when the Maquis found out about it...they just kind of shrugged.

In another episode, after they later regained semi-regular contact with Earth, they learned that the Maquis had been completely wiped out by the Dominion. The Maquis crew members were upset about this, especially Belanna, but by the next episode it had been forgotten.

I think that was Voyager's true flaw--it's complete lack of consistency. They always talked about their limited resources, but never actually suffered from it. The ship could be battered and be fully restored the next episode. They not only build an entirely new type of shuttle craft (the Delta Flyer), but after it was destroyed, built a second, even better one. They played up the schism between the Maquis and Starfleet, but nothing ever came from it. And of course, poor Janeway's characterization was so varied from episode to episode, even the actress wondered if she was playing a schizophrenic.
Steve C

Re: Star trek

Postby Steve C » Thu Jul 13, 2017 8:21 pm

It would have been a cool storyline for a whole subset of Voyager to suddenly reject the core mission: I have 2 grandparents 3 aunts, both parents and 6 siblings that I love. I was willing to cross through the fires of hell to see them again. They are all dead now. I have no reason to return to the Alpha quadrant. Voyager *is* crossing hell. I want to stop.

Even if it wasn't a storyline it should have still been a background thing. Morale is super high because we are in contact with Starfleet again! Morale is super low because there is literally no reason for a third of the crew to want to go to the Alpha quadrant. They had that thing with Neelix getting off (but that was lame). There should have been a lot more wanting to quit after they found out that nobody they know is still alive and there is no home to return to.

Then again Voyager had so many problems that this is just another straw on the haystack.
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John

Re: Star trek

Postby John » Thu Jul 13, 2017 10:02 pm

JadedDM wrote:I remember one episode later on where it was discovered that Tuvok had an old, secret holodeck program . . .

I'd forgotten about the holodeck, which allegedly runs on a separate power supply than the rest of the ship. And said power supply for some reason can't be used with the rest of the ship. I can't believe that the writers went through all the trouble to come up with an excuse for holodeck episodes but didn't bother to make sure that the excuse was any good. You know what would have been better? Literally nothing. I mean it. Just have the characters use the holodeck without making a big deal out of it. Because it's not as if the rest of the ship ever seemed to suffer from lack of power anyway.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Star trek

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Fri Jul 14, 2017 3:07 pm

Ah the house of quark.I love that episode.I like the little guy.He can be annoying at times,but theres much admirable about him.Heck,that parallel universe episode shows that even in there quark still cares about the slaves as he did in this one.

The introduction of the dominion episodes are also great.Yes,the dominion had the right to defend their sovereign borders,and theres an argument to be made that the federation shouldve respected that.But even in their first meeting,the jem hadar told them how they already had spies in the alpha quadrant and were presenting a threat worth investigating.This is really when the show becomes excellent,and Im reminded why I was so hooked back in the day.

I also love the design of jem hadar ships.They feel sleek and menacing.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Star trek

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:59 pm

Civil defense coming practically immediately before defiant is hilarious.How did the federation manage to do anything when their security is so lax compared to everyone else?

Dukat is such a great villain.Though I wonder what makes him so much more likable* than winn.They are both smug,wretched,deluded people,yet winn is so grating.Maybe its because dukat is constantly being beaten by others while winn gets to err,win,despite not deserving to?

Also,I remember being confused about the riker/obrien exchange back in the day.But now that Ive watched the whole of tng,Im even more confused by it.I mean,I guess I can see how that bluff worked,but it was a rather weird one.

*Maybe thats a strong word.Tolerable?
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John

Re: Star trek

Postby John » Wed Jul 19, 2017 5:22 pm

The difference between Dukat and Winn is that Dukat likes people. He's arrogant, condescending, and utterly convinced of his own superiority, it's true, but he has a weird paternalistic affection for the rest of the galaxy.
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JadedDM

Re: Star trek

Postby JadedDM » Wed Jul 19, 2017 6:37 pm

I always chalked it up to Marc Alaimo's incredible charisma. It's entirely possible anyone else trying to play Dukat would have come off far less likable.
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John

Re: Star trek

Postby John » Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:35 pm

I think another big part of it is that Dukat often seems to be enjoying himself. He's having fun, at least up until his ego takes too severe a blow.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Star trek

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Fri Jul 21, 2017 5:56 pm

Past tense is so funny* to watch today.Its just 7 years from now,and europe has constant riots while the usa has an immense health care and homeless problem.How did the people of the 21st century manage to make things so bad?An excellent question doctor!

*The disturbing kind of funny,not the HAHA kind of funny.
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Andrew

Re: Star trek

Postby Andrew » Sun Jul 23, 2017 12:17 pm

Star Trek Discovery trailer for anyone who is interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWnYtyNKPsA

I'm not sure about this. I want to like it but it doesn't feel like Star Trek...
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Star trek

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Sun Jul 23, 2017 12:44 pm

That guy acts too sinister to be mudd.Mudd is a lovable scoundrel,not a sinister villain.

The klingons look like something I could get used to.

The focus on action....Ehh,that was how they always advertised it,so I wont hold it against the show.

Andrew wrote:I'm not sure about this. I want to like it but it doesn't feel like Star Trek...


There are scenes with crawling through jefferies tubes,that does feel like star trek.
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JadedDM

Re: Star trek

Postby JadedDM » Sun Jul 23, 2017 3:59 pm

Here's a link that works for Americans.

As for my own thoughts, I'm just going to wait and see how it turns out. But I hope it's good. Or at least watchable. But even if it's not, I can't say I'm not used to Star Trek being bad by this point. In other words, my expectations are pretty low by this point, so unless it's just pure garbage, I should hopefully find it to be 'good enough.'
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Star trek

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Thu Jul 27, 2017 3:35 am

I really like the founders as a villain in trek.They are shifty and devious,like romulans,only even more so.And they are also better than the borg in using drones(the jem hadar),because of the contingencies built into them in case of being isolated from the rest.They feel like a rather mary sue villain,if you think about them like that.But they are not,they still have flaws,which makes them so interesting.

I also like garak.He is an interesting...ally...of sorts.And even though he always lies,his motivations are rather simple and transparent if you observe him carefully.

So yeah,the two parter with garak and odo is a great one.I love it.The interactions between those two are fascinating.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Star trek

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Wed Aug 09, 2017 6:43 pm

Its really interesting that the end of third season of tng was the borg full on attack,while the end of third season of ds9 is a founder showing off his might.Also,the end of that episode is an awesome setup for the future of ds9.Im glad that with this,they actually continued with that threat,unlike the scraped bug one of tng.But then,the founders have been planned out a bit more than the neck bugs.Mostly.The weirdness of telepathy in the previous episode notwithstanding.But then,telepathy was always weird in trek.

And its really interesting to compare the gooey effects of the founders to the gooey effects of t1000.Its impressive how much that technology became cheaper in just a few years.Though not the cutting edge of a high budget movie,its still nice seeing how cgi has progressed back then.
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John

Re: Star trek

Postby John » Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:02 pm

Daemian Lucifer wrote:And its really interesting to compare the gooey effects of the founders to the gooey effects of t1000.Its impressive how much that technology became cheaper in just a few years.Though not the cutting edge of a high budget movie,its still nice seeing how cgi has progressed back then.

Here's a morphing-related argument about DS9 that I used to have back in the day. It goes something like this:

  • Early in the show, Odo claims that he isn't always good at matching the fine details of whatever he's imitating. It's implied that this is the explanation for the, er, unfinished look of his face.
  • However, when Odo morphs into something else--the wall, a shot glass, a rat, a dog, or whatever--the visual effects department replaces Rene Auberjonois with the exact thing that Odo is supposed to be imitating--the wall, a shot glass, a rat, a dog, etc. Similarly, when one of the Founders imitates another character--General Martok, for example--the actor playing the Founder is replaced by the actor for that character. In other words, whenever Odo does morph, he necessarily gets all the fine details exactly right. (I mean, it's impossible for a dog to get the fine details of being a dog wrong. Come on!)
  • I conclude, therefore, that Changelings, including Odo, are capable of perfectly imitating the appearance of whatever object or organism they like. It may have taken time for Odo to master the skill, but he has indeed mastered it by the time the series starts. If Odo's face is unfinished, it's because that's how he initially presented himself to the Bajoran and Cardassian scientists studying him and how he chooses to continue to present himself to others now.
  • At this point, a number of people would disagree with me and claim that, no, Odo is still getting the fine details wrong, it's just that I can't tell because I'm not as good at recognizing the fine details of walls, shot glasses, rats, and dogs as I am those of people. Also, I may be a jerk who lacks imagination.

Ah, memories.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Star trek

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:12 pm

Ah,but heres the thing:You were watching the show filmed at a lower framerate than your yes,on a device with not that great resolution.So how do you know that the dog you saw had its hair parted as a real dog would,and that the human face you saw had the correct pores and facial hair on it like a real face?Those could be the fine details odo was talking about.

Also,the ears.
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JadedDM

Re: Star trek

Postby JadedDM » Thu Aug 10, 2017 3:07 am

The thing is, if Odo's face looks like that because he is not good at making faces, it does raise the question why all of the other changelings in the show look the exact same way when in humanoid form.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Star trek

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Thu Aug 10, 2017 3:41 am

JadedDM wrote:The thing is, if Odo's face looks like that because he is not good at making faces, it does raise the question why all of the other changelings in the show look the exact same way when in humanoid form.


Because they are mimicking him.The first time we see one who is specifically shown to be a changeling,is when they meet odo.
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John

Re: Star trek

Postby John » Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:46 am

Daemian Lucifer wrote:Ah,but heres the thing:You were watching the show filmed at a lower framerate than your yes,on a device with not that great resolution.So how do you know that the dog you saw had its hair parted as a real dog would,and that the human face you saw had the correct pores and facial hair on it like a real face?Those could be the fine details odo was talking about.

Also,the ears.

Yeah, that takes me back. Good times.

More seriously, this was an argument from the early seasons of DS9. Later on, when it became a plot point that the Founders can not only flawlessly imitate humans and Klingons but flawlessly imitate specific humans and Klingons to the point that not even their closest friends and relations notice something is wrong, we all shut up about it. I think it's pretty clear that Changelings can imitate whatever they like perfectly well. I suppose you could still debate whether Odo has learned to do that yet, as to the best of my recollection he never impersonates anyone, but I can't think why you would want to.

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