Star trek

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John

Re: Star trek

Postby John » Fri Jun 23, 2017 4:54 pm

Daemian Lucifer wrote:I remember now why I liked ds9 so much when I watched it back in my youth:

Benjamin the Fist Sisko wrote:I don't need you to interpret the prime directive for me,doctor.

We're calling him "The Fist" now? I would have thought that his nick-name was "The Clockmaker" or "The Last Baseball Enthusiast".
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Star trek

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Fri Jun 23, 2017 4:58 pm

John wrote:
Daemian Lucifer wrote:I remember now why I liked ds9 so much when I watched it back in my youth:

Benjamin the Fist Sisko wrote:I don't need you to interpret the prime directive for me,doctor.

We're calling him "The Fist" now? I would have thought that his nick-name was "The Clockmaker" or "The Last Baseball Enthusiast".


Well,its "Dont Fuck With The",but I was trying to keep it family friendly.
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Wide And Nerdy

Re: Star trek

Postby Wide And Nerdy » Tue Jun 27, 2017 2:29 pm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6bekli_Tepe

There was a DS9 episode where Sisko starts getting visions and finds an ancient Bajoran temple. After seeing the above linked Göbekli Tepe I'm thinking this must be the inspiration. It seems to have a configuration of concentric circles and an obelisk just like the temple in the episode.
Steve C

Re: Star trek

Postby Steve C » Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:13 pm

That's a reasonable guess. The timeline works out. The site was excavated in 95. The episode premiered in 98. Add a year for publishing, and subtract a year for the script and it's quite likely the epsiode writer was inspired by the dig in 96-97.
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SpammyV
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Re: Star trek

Postby SpammyV » Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:32 pm

Speaking of Discovery, I have such mixed feelings about the trailer they posted. On the one hand it looks like they're going further down the sort-of Fast and the Furious style that the reboot movies have used, which isn't itself necessarily bad, but it's tied in my mind to Star Trek 2009 and Into Darkness, two movies where my general impression was, "They have all the pieces but no one there knows how to write a new Star Trek story."

On the other hand parts of it make me feel like there might be something of a testing/examination of what we think of as traditional Federation values, which I think would be an interesting thing to do and long-since deserved and honestly should have been what Into Darkness was. But that's a rant for another post.

I might even watch Discovery if I didn't have to pay for CBS's streaming service or whatever it is.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Star trek

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Fri Jun 30, 2017 6:28 pm

Ah duet,the episode that really makes you feel not clean.And the episode is followed by the only thing worse than mass genocide:Winn.So many episodes with winn in them*shiver*.
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John

Re: Star trek

Postby John » Sat Jul 01, 2017 11:36 am

Duet and other, similarly excellent episodes from the first season of DS9 are the reason I get angry when people claim that the first couple of seasons of Star Trek series always suck.

One thing I've come to appreciate about Duet in recent years is that it gave the character actor playing The Cardassian the chance to chew some scenery. It turns out he's really good at it. Usually he plays boring, suit-wearing authority figures. The combination of alien make-up and visible emotions meant that it took me a long time to realize he was the guy from that Tom Clancy movie and Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Star trek

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Sat Jul 01, 2017 12:47 pm

John wrote:Duet and other, similarly excellent episodes from the first season of DS9 are the reason I get angry when people claim that the first couple of seasons of Star Trek series always suck.


Well,compared to the rest of ds9,the first season is a bit lackluster.It still has the episode that turned q from the trickster god into a disgruntled ex boyfriend who cant take a hint(though the boxing scene was great).And the episode where bashir thinks of a brainless dax.Stronger season than the beginning of tng,sure,but not that great overall.

Heh,I forgot that it was the ferengi who first learned about the dominion.Thats pretty funny to have quark be the ruin of the whole balance of power in the alpha quadrant.
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Supahewok

Re: Star trek

Postby Supahewok » Sat Jul 01, 2017 5:57 pm

Daemian Lucifer wrote:And the episode is followed by the only thing worse than mass genocide:Winn.So many episodes with winn in them*shiver*.

I... don't remember who or what a "Winn" was. Was that that guy in the Marquis that Sisko shot a planet to catch? Cuz that guy was dumb and boring.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Star trek

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Sat Jul 01, 2017 7:18 pm

Supahewok wrote:
Daemian Lucifer wrote:And the episode is followed by the only thing worse than mass genocide:Winn.So many episodes with winn in them*shiver*.

I... don't remember who or what a "Winn" was. Was that that guy in the Marquis that Sisko shot a planet to catch? Cuz that guy was dumb and boring.


Image
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Supahewok

Re: Star trek

Postby Supahewok » Sat Jul 01, 2017 7:45 pm

Oh.

Oooooooooooooooh.

Shit.
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John

Re: Star trek

Postby John » Sat Jul 01, 2017 9:01 pm

Supahewok wrote:I... don't remember who or what a "Winn" was. Was that that guy in the Marquis that Sisko shot a planet to catch? Cuz that guy was dumb and boring.

You are thinking of Eddington. Vedek Winn (later Kai Winn) is a Bajoran religious official, driven by a twisted combination of piety, pride, and ambition. Mostly ambition. Also, she is played by Nurse Ratched from One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest. She is a million times more interesting than Eddington. She is super creepy and compelling until the last episode or so of the series when the writers unfortunately kinda blew it and made her Crazy Dukat's crazy sidekick.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Star trek

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Sun Jul 02, 2017 10:08 am

While she is someone you really love to hate,I kind of wish they had opaka for a bit longer.The two introduced in the late season 1,winn and bareil,seem like opaka split into two:Religious zealot on one side and reasonable person on the other.While in opaka the faith and humanity were in balance with each other,in these two they are kind of overboard.

Also,it is interesting to see religion in a star trek show.A good way to introduce it also,because you cant have religion in humans(because Gene),but this way you also cant have the humans meddle with it even when they disagree(because prime directive).Having sisko be the jesus was a masterstroke in so many ways.
Steve C

Re: Star trek

Postby Steve C » Sun Jul 02, 2017 5:34 pm

I never liked episodes with Winn in them. It was one of the reasons I stopped watching DS9.
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Wide And Nerdy

Re: Star trek

Postby Wide And Nerdy » Thu Jul 06, 2017 1:36 pm

John wrote:
Supahewok wrote:I... don't remember who or what a "Winn" was. Was that that guy in the Marquis that Sisko shot a planet to catch? Cuz that guy was dumb and boring.

You are thinking of Eddington. Vedek Winn (later Kai Winn) is a Bajoran religious official, driven by a twisted combination of piety, pride, and ambition. Mostly ambition. Also, she is played by Nurse Ratched from One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest. She is a million times more interesting than Eddington. She is super creepy and compelling until the last episode or so of the series when the writers unfortunately kinda blew it and made her Crazy Dukat's crazy sidekick.


She's a wonderful character (at least once you get old enough to appreciate that some characters are supposed to be hated) but I wouldn't say she's a million times better than Eddington. More like twice as good. Eddington didn't have nearly as much time to develop his character especially since we couldn't see his true self till his betrayal.

That said, layered into his "Starfleet professional" persona is a mostly subtle critique of the Federation as he sees it. It only comes out in retrospect "I'm just a career minded Starfleet officer. I don't make moral judgments, I just follow orders and ingratiate myself to the command structure for my own advancement. The life I live is bland, sterile and basic" Most likely he's known officers like this. I mean, just look at all the crazy Admirals. But he's projecting and engaging in selective bias. His flaw is that he needs his opponents to be villains so he can't see the good in anything Starfleet anymore. The evidence of just how varied and moral the Federation can be is right in front of him on that space station.
Last edited by Wide And Nerdy on Thu Jul 06, 2017 3:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Supahewok

Re: Star trek

Postby Supahewok » Thu Jul 06, 2017 2:50 pm

Mostly that dude was a goof who wouldn't get his head out of his ass about Les Miserables. "Javiert this, Javiert that."
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John

Re: Star trek

Postby John » Thu Jul 06, 2017 4:03 pm

I won't deny that there are some interesting ideas underlying the Eddington character, but the various Eddington episodes suffer from two very unfortunate drawbacks. First, although we do see Eddington serving on the station prior to his betrayal he doesn't actually do very much. Nor does he have much in the way of relationships with the regular characters that viewers actually care about. So while Eddington betrays the Federation--which is, of course, bad--he doesn't really betray anyone on the station. From the audience's point of view, he might as well have been the third extra from the left. His betrayal has no more emotional consequences than that of Cal Hudson, Sisko's old friend, who betrayed the Federation in the very episode in which he was introduced and was promptly never seen again. Second, Eddington has pretty much zero charisma. Dukat and Winn may be bad, but they're fun to watch being bad. Eddington isn't.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Star trek

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Fri Jul 07, 2017 3:10 pm

Whispers is such a good episode(the one where I WAS THE INFILTRATOR ALL ALONG!),even if you know the twist.I love both that one and the one where obrien is in that prison for decades.Poor guy,having his head screwed with like that constantly(though technically its two different obriens who experienced those two episodes).

However,theres an issue with trek that this episode highlights.The shows have such a weird inconsistent look on life:
- Oh no,the crystalline entity has slaughtered so many!We need to kill it!But its the only one of its kind,would it be right to do so?You killed it?You monster!
- Oh no,these sapient aliens are going back in time and sucking out the life out of so many!But they are the last of their kind and are just trying to survive,would it be right to stop them without trying to find a way to help them?Screw them,slag their whole planet from the orbit!Now,whats for dinner?
- Oh no,these tiny machines are displaying sings of life and rudimentary intelligence!Sacrifice a bunch of sapient beings in order to preserve them!
- Oh no,these fully functional fully sapient human clones have made fully grown clowns of two of us!Vaporize the two,its the only way to make sure!!

Etc...Its just so funny.Though sometimes they do something effective with it(like that scene with all the doctors in the mine),but it sure presents the federation as a much less idyllic place then initially advertised.

Oh,and to come back to romance and trek,the bromance between obrien and bashir is a fun one practically from the start.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Star trek

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Sat Jul 08, 2017 1:22 pm

And then,paradise.The episode that was almost good.It starts of great,showing how that idiotic "rural simplicity" idea is not something everyone would embrace,showing how harsh the conditions would be in such a place,and its all good.But then in the end,people who were so glad that they could finally be rescued at the beginning....decide to stay.Worse,none of them is even remotely angry at the people WHO WERE HOLDING THEM HOSTAGE FOR TEN YEARS.Its not as bad as that hippie bullshit of insurrection where the stupidity runs throughout the whole movie,but it was a really bad ending.
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John

Re: Star trek

Postby John » Sat Jul 08, 2017 1:50 pm

Daemian Lucifer wrote:But then in the end,people who were so glad that they could finally be rescued at the beginning....decide to stay.

They don't all stay, do they? I thought it was just the dupe of a husband and some of the extras that decided to stay while those who had been most sympathetic to Sisko elected to finally get rescued. Of course it's been a few years since I last watched the episode so I could be wrong. Anyway, it's not as ridiculous that some people would elect to stay as you might think. They're a largely self-selected group and predisposed to a romanticized view of this sort of thing to begin with. I'd have more trouble believing it if they'd been a proper random sample of humanity.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Star trek

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Sat Jul 08, 2017 2:12 pm

John wrote:They don't all stay, do they?


They all stay.Except for the two that sisko and miles take with them to stand trial for kidnapping and murder.

John wrote:Anyway, it's not as ridiculous that some people would elect to stay as you might think.


Of course not.I expected quite a few of them wishing to stay.But to not even consider leaving,to not even mention discussing it,after many were so happy at the prospect of leaving back in the beginning of the episode,thats just silly.But thats just disappointing,the infuriating part is that none of them react at all when they find out that they were kidnapped and that their loved ones died for this crazy womans idea of paradise."Oh,our friends lives couldve been saved with ease if you werent such a loony?Well sucks to be them,I have some raw potatoes to dig out of the ground and munch on!Bye"
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Star trek

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Wed Jul 12, 2017 1:51 pm

The maquis were such a great idea for trek.It really is a shame that both tng and ds9 did the setup well only for voyager to have practically no payoff.This couldve been the focus of at least the whole first season.
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John

Re: Star trek

Postby John » Wed Jul 12, 2017 2:31 pm

Daemian Lucifer wrote:The maquis were such a great idea for trek.It really is a shame that both tng and ds9 did the setup well only for voyager to have practically no payoff.This couldve been the focus of at least the whole first season.

The moment that Voyager more or less died for me was in--I believe--the third episode when Janeway says to either Tuvok or Chakotay "I think the crews are finally starting to get along". I was stunned, and for two reasons. First, there had been absolutely no evidence up to this point that the crews were not already getting along perfectly. Second, it signalled that the writers really weren't all that interested in the premise of their own show. I stuck around for, oh, about another half season or so out of misguided loyalty, but I was eventually overwhelmed by apathy--and also Neelix--and gave up. It is, as you suggest, a shame, because I still think that Voyager has the best pilot of any Trek show--I admit this is not a high bar to clear--and a lot of interesting hooks built into its premise.

As for the Maquis crew of Voyager, I'm not entirely sure how the show should have handled their differences with their Starfleet colleagues. I mean, the political conflict between the Maquis and the Federation is largely moot while everyone is stuck out in the Gamma Quadrant. So the thing that distinguished the Maquis from the Starfleet would have to be (or have been) their attitudes. I suppose I would have expected the Maquis crew members to, oh, be more willing to resort to force to get what they want or to prioritize their own wants and needs over those of random aliens in a way that idealistic Starfleet officers aren't supposed to. Maybe the show did do some of that later on, or from time to time, but it should have been a persistent theme from the very beginning.
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krellen
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Re: Star trek

Postby krellen » Wed Jul 12, 2017 3:25 pm

Voyager allowed anyone that wanted to off the street to submit a script, and didn't have a lot of hard guidelines on how to write characters or when and how to deny a script, so it was pretty all-over-the-place for its entire run.

However, I will never forgive Rick Berman for what he did to my idealistic scifi setting. Most of you probably shouldn't like Star Trek, because it shouldn't be a show for you (there's plenty of other shows for you out there!) But a need to turn Trek from a 50 million dollar franchise to a 500 million dollar franchise corrupted its heart to appeal to a more mass audience.

The danger of truly loving niche products is very few people are satisfied having their products remain niche.
Last edited by krellen on Wed Jul 12, 2017 3:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Wide And Nerdy

Re: Star trek

Postby Wide And Nerdy » Wed Jul 12, 2017 3:27 pm

John wrote:
Daemian Lucifer wrote:The maquis were such a great idea for trek.It really is a shame that both tng and ds9 did the setup well only for voyager to have practically no payoff.This couldve been the focus of at least the whole first season.

The moment that Voyager more or less died for me was in--I believe--the third episode when Janeway says to either Tuvok or Chakotay "I think the crews are finally starting to get along". I was stunned, and for two reasons. First, there had been absolutely no evidence up to this point that the crews were not already getting along perfectly. Second, it signalled that the writers really weren't all that interested in the premise of their own show. I stuck around for, oh, about another half season or so out of misguided loyalty, but I was eventually overwhelmed by apathy--and also Neelix--and gave up. It is, as you suggest, a shame, because I still think that Voyager has the best pilot of any Trek show--I admit this is not a high bar to clear--and a lot of interesting hooks built into its premise.

As for the Maquis crew of Voyager, I'm not entirely sure how the show should have handled their differences with their Starfleet colleagues. I mean, the political conflict between the Maquis and the Federation is largely moot while everyone is stuck out in the Gamma Quadrant. So the thing that distinguished the Maquis from the Starfleet would have to be (or have been) their attitudes. I suppose I would have expected the Maquis crew members to, oh, be more willing to resort to force to get what they want or to prioritize their own wants and needs over those of random aliens in a way that idealistic Starfleet officers aren't supposed to. Maybe the show did do some of that later on, or from time to time, but it should have been a persistent theme from the very beginning.


Exactly so its not like they needed the officers to be at each others throats. There would just be this constant tension of Starfleet trying to be starfleet vs the Masquis saying "there's no station for you to resupply at, we know all these tricks to stretch supplies and make the best use of limited resources. You're not going to like some of them but they helped us survive." You could have episodes where the Starfleet people appreciate the pressures of necessity and other episodes where the Masquis realize that if you try a little harder, you can do the right thing. Really this needed DS9's writing team.

They could have neatly avoided the problem of having magic tech by forcing them to ration their magic. You could even frame the need to resort to the magic tech as a failure. The good guys still got out of the situation but they used that much more of their magic resources, so what are they going to do when they finally run out? You could even have Janeway deciding to use that much more of their finite supply of magic starfleet tech to help aliens when they could have used the Masquis way and conserved resources but the aliens would be screwed.

It would have helped if there was some kind of resource they couldn't produce on the ship. Maybe there's an element used in the intermix chamber that can only be produced by the kind of large reactor that just doesn't fit on a starship (maybe only a space station can host a reactor that large). If they want to change the rules, a few seasons in, they find some technology that allows them to create a smaller reactor to generate that element so they can use the magic tech more often but still not an unlimited amount and they have to give up the stores of it they already had to fit the reactor. That way you could have episodes where the crew completely runs out of magic tech but they have it again the next episode.

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