Star trek

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John

Re: Star trek

Post by John » Tue Feb 14, 2017 6:23 pm

Daemian Lucifer wrote:Also,what the hell happened to klingons?In the beginning worf was all "Female klingons can be as vicious as men",and we saw them serving alongside the male klingons on a warship.Then gowron came to power,and suddenly "No female can serve at the council".And in this episode,worf is like "Females are all weak and stupid and have cooties,blah!".
Welcome to the wonderful, inconsistent world of Star Trek! Don't worry too much about the Klingons. The DS9 episode "Looking for Par'Mach in All the Wrong Places" (Season 5, Episode 3) shows what Klingons think is a romantic night out. I don't know about stupid, but if Klingon females were weak then the species would have been killed off by its own mating rituals.
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SpammyV
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Re: Star trek

Post by SpammyV » Tue Feb 21, 2017 3:28 am

So BBC America has Star Trek Voyager reruns now, and I watched a few. In particular an episode called Living Witness. It's about a backup of the Doctor's program being reactivated 700 years after the events of Voyager, as part of a museum of misconstrued history, painting Voyager as thugs and mercenaries happily ready to commit genocide. So, y'know, Chuck's Evil Janeway.

But there was a moment in the episode that just spoke to me. Like my experiences had been voiced. There's a moment in the episode where the Doctor and the Museum director are working together to prove the Doctor's account correct. The Doctor wistfully wonders if the crew ever got home, and the director says he does too. The Doctor reacts with surprise, and the director explains that he heard the stories of Voyager when he was a child, too young to understand the believed history that Voyager had been the ones to nearly destroy them. The name Voyager, and the idea of this ship thrown across the galaxy, struggling to get home, always fascinated him and drew him into history.

And in the same way, Voyager drew me into sci-fi. I was young when Voyager was airing, too young to be aware of any of the flaws with the show that reviewers like Chuck would point out. To me, Voyager was the "grown up" show that I could watch. It's the reason I was pulled to sci-fi and fantasy as a child. Probably the reason I like sci-fi and fantasy even now. Like he was excited by the idea of Voyager without realizing they were villains (at the time), I was excited by Voyager without realizing the show was flawed.

Funny how a show can reach across nearly a decade and seem like it's saying something directly about me.
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Ringwraith

Re: Star trek

Post by Ringwraith » Tue Feb 21, 2017 8:47 am

I do love that episode, especially as it's oddly poignant in a silly episode where everyone gets to act like comedy villain versions of themselves.
One of Voyager's biggest problems is that it's massively inconsistent; there's still some really good episodes there (like pretty much anything focusing on the Doctor) but sometimes characters completely change depending on the episode, or they do something massively stupid, repeatedly (hello Native American ancestry storylines).
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Star trek

Post by Daemian Lucifer » Wed Mar 08, 2017 8:22 pm

You know,its weird how people say that "deep space nine is straying too far from the standards of federation",yet in tng the flagship of the federation,the one with the most diplomatic captain of them all,ends simply nuking some aliens from orbit,most likely killing the last remnants of that species,without even considering an alternative."Oh yea mister twain,we arent the bloodthirsty spaniards you compare us to,we are peacful explorers.Now,get back to your time so we can nuke this place into oblivion."

Data musing about his death was fun though.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Star trek

Post by Daemian Lucifer » Thu Apr 06, 2017 6:57 pm

Quality of life.Ugh....this episode...Im really sad that they made a data centric episode about artificial life that is just so bad.First,they say that because this machine shows self preservation,it must be alive.Which is stupid.My computer is designed so that it will deliberately turn itself off before frying its components.Is it therefore alive?

Then they go on to say how viruses are alive,which they are not.

And then,on top of all of that,data decides to sacrifice two sapient beings in order to preserve three bacteria.

But the worst of all is the end,when he gets congratulated for his decision.The fuck?!This is the worst kind of moralizing that I loathe in trek.The "we are so high and mighty that we invented levitation just so we wouldnt trample the poor grass".
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SpammyV
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Re: Star trek

Post by SpammyV » Tue Apr 11, 2017 2:57 am

I'm watching "Muse," a Voyager episode. It's another meta-episode about Voyager and storytelling and features writers talking about Voyager. B'lenna is trapped on a primitive planet where a playwright finds her and starts using Voyager as the basis for his plays. Features an argument about whether Vulcans are believable or not where the playwright goes off trying to explain how Vulcans being logical and unfeeling is supposed to show the depth of their emotion. A scene where actor-Janeway and actor-Chakotay start kissing that leads right into a conversation between real-Janeway and real-Chakotay that is all business. Also amusingly featuring B'lenna going that romance is the last thing on anyone's mind on Voyager.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Star trek

Post by Daemian Lucifer » Tue Apr 11, 2017 2:29 pm

The biggest sorrow of great star trek episodes is that they show just how much potential was wasted in bad ones.Face of the enemy shows just how wasted Marina Sirtis was playing the useless counselor tits troi,when she couldve been garak of the tng era.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Star trek

Post by Daemian Lucifer » Wed May 24, 2017 2:03 pm

*sigh*season 7 of tng....Its definitely not as bad as the first 2,and there are some great episodes*,but long lost relative in every other episode is a bit too much.And though most of those are decent or meh,theres the prime directive episode....Dear god,the stupidity of the prime directive episode...At least,theres finally someone to challenge their "Let them die!" bullshit,but still the whole primary cast is insufferable.I loathe episodes like that one.

*Also,the scariest episode of all of trek.A world where picard is dead,geordi dies,wesley is a lieutenant,and worst of all,worf is married to troi!
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Star trek

Post by Daemian Lucifer » Sun Jun 11, 2017 3:29 pm

Ive seen all of tng now.Im happy with how it ends.But Im even more happier that I know that nothing comes out of worf and troi.Cant imagine how frustrated that made people who watched this back in the day.

But now,a conundrum lies before me.Should I rewatch ds9,which I like,or should I watch voyager first,which Im kind of dreading?And should I even venture into enterprise at all,which Im dreading even more?Decisions decisions...
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John

Re: Star trek

Post by John » Sun Jun 11, 2017 10:13 pm

I have pretty much never cared for romance in my Star Trek. I used to get mad at stuff like Worf-Troi and even Odo-Kira because I showed up for some sci-fi and got a bunch of will-they-won't-they garbage instead. Actually, I hated Odo-Kira I even more than Worf-Troi because I was a huge DS9 fan and much more casual about TNG. I took DS9 personally is what I'm saying. I like to think I've mellowed since then, but in all probability I just haven't been nearly so invested in anything since. Anyhow, I now recognize that romance does--in principle--have its place in sci-fi. I guess. It depends on how it relates to the plot and theme of the story in question.

As for Voyager and Enterprise, the worst thing you could do is watch them out of a sense of obligation. Life is short and the number of good TV shows these days is--or so I've heard--large. Find something that you're genuinely interested in or excited about and watch that instead. Of course it should not need to be said that you should totally watch DS9. Again. And again. Even the sillier first-season episodes. Move along home.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Star trek

Post by Daemian Lucifer » Sun Jun 11, 2017 10:31 pm

John wrote: Life is short and the number of good TV shows these days is--or so I've heard--large.
Eh,Im no stranger to hate watching a show.Thats what I do with arrow.The worst entertainment for me is not the bad/infuriating one,its the boring one.Also,after every episode of trek,I go and (re)watch the SFDebris episode of it,so I have my enjoyment even from bad episodes.

Still,I decided to go with ds9.After that,I think Ill rewatch buffy.

Speaking of romance,it really is hard to do in a tv show.Other than wash and zoe,I dont think Ive seen a good one.I mean,theres the angel/buffy/spike thing,but that one is....well,those work because of the strife infused in them,so not really workable.Heck,all of the relationships in that show are doomed from the start.And yet far more effort was put into establishing them than in other shows.
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Andrew

Re: Star trek

Post by Andrew » Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:23 am

Voyager is my favourite of all the Star Trek series' so I'll say go ahead and watch that first! Although if romance is an issue for you you're going to be frustrated with the many terrible romantic episodes Voyager has.

Enterprise season 1 is probably the hardest season of any TV series I have ever watched. It is like watching that unicorn in Never Ending Story die again and again and again. If you make it out the other end though season 2, 3 and most of 4 are on par with some of the best star trek episodes I have seen.

Edit: oh you've already decided. And you chose the one I have the least connection with so eh... :P
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Wide And Nerdy

Re: Star trek

Post by Wide And Nerdy » Tue Jun 13, 2017 12:33 pm

John wrote:I have pretty much never cared for romance in my Star Trek. I used to get mad at stuff like Worf-Troi and even Odo-Kira because I showed up for some sci-fi and got a bunch of will-they-won't-they garbage instead. Actually, I hated Odo-Kira I even more than Worf-Troi because I was a huge DS9 fan and much more casual about TNG. I took DS9 personally is what I'm saying. I like to think I've mellowed since then, but in all probability I just haven't been nearly so invested in anything since. Anyhow, I now recognize that romance does--in principle--have its place in sci-fi. I guess. It depends on how it relates to the plot and theme of the story in question.

As for Voyager and Enterprise, the worst thing you could do is watch them out of a sense of obligation. Life is short and the number of good TV shows these days is--or so I've heard--large. Find something that you're genuinely interested in or excited about and watch that instead. Of course it should not need to be said that you should totally watch DS9. Again. And again. Even the sillier first-season episodes. Move along home.
I think it had its place in the character arcs of Worf and Odo both. Worf had gone through an arc of being dishonored and estranged from his people, feeling like he had little connection to humans inspite of his relationships with specific ones and having been actively rejected by his people essentially because they had less honor than he did (which plays into the earlier arc of Worf starting to realize that he had this romanticized notion of Klingon honor that real Klingons didn't share.) Romance was part of Worf starting to build his own family in the life he was forced to accept.

For Odo, its clear they wanted to have a character on the show that didn't feel loyal to the Federation or even much to the Bajorans. Kira ended up being the reason he stayed, I'm just glad that Odo's arc didn't overwrite hers because with time she's become my favorite female Star Trek character.

I really enjoy the hints of warmth we get out of her. Its so sad because you can tell that she could have been this warm caring nurturing person all the time if she hadn't been hardened by a childhood filled with war and atrocities. Nana Visitor is a tremendous actress. Really DS9 I felt had the most overall acting talent. And the best writing. Not to disparage the other shows, each of which had great actors (yes I include Voyager, the acting wasn't the problem at least for most of the cast. It was an issue with direction and writing.)
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Star trek

Post by Daemian Lucifer » Tue Jun 13, 2017 2:59 pm

Wide And Nerdy wrote: I think it had its place in the character arcs of Worf
Yes,but with troi out of all people?

Dont get me wrong,I have nothing against Sirtis.In that episode where she is disguised as a romulan,she is great.But there she is great because she is not playing troi.Its just such a bad character.
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John

Re: Star trek

Post by John » Tue Jun 13, 2017 3:23 pm

Wide And Nerdy wrote:I think it had its place in the character arcs of Worf and Odo both. Worf had gone through an arc of being dishonored and estranged from his people, feeling like he had little connection to humans inspite of his relationships with specific ones and having been actively rejected by his people essentially because they had less honor than he did (which plays into the earlier arc of Worf starting to realize that he had this romanticized notion of Klingon honor that real Klingons didn't share.) Romance was part of Worf starting to build his own family in the life he was forced to accept.

For Odo, its clear they wanted to have a character on the show that didn't feel loyal to the Federation or even much to the Bajorans. Kira ended up being the reason he stayed, I'm just glad that Odo's arc didn't overwrite hers because with time she's become my favorite female Star Trek character.
Like I said, I'm older and wiser now--it's been, what, nearly 20 years?--and I can accept that sort of thing in principle. Even so, I still think that both the romances in question were handled fairly poorly. I don't think that Worf's extremely tentative romance with Troi had much of anything to do with his overall character arc. Or Troi's, for that matter. In fact, I'll go so far as to claim that either Worf,Troi, or both could have been replaced by generic human characters in just about any of the Worf-Troi scenes without requiring any edits to the dialogue. In other words, their romance was so generic that the fact that one of them was a Alien Warrior Guy and the other an Alien Empath Girl didn't really come into play at all. For what it's worth, I do like your spin on it, but I can't say I'm convinced that's what the writers were going for. Odo's romance with Kira was better--sort of--in the sense that his Changeling-ness was an essential part of it . . . eventually. For the longest time, however--for what I'm pretty sure was actual, literal years--the Odo-Kira romance consisted of Odo moping over Kira and Kira dating other guys. The romance, if it could be called such when Kira was completely oblivious to Odo's feelings, went nowhere until Season 6. I could have done with a lot less moping, you know? Like, maybe we could have had just one season's worth of high-school level awkwardness before Odo finally asked Kira out. Or it might have been more tolerable with different direction. I don't know. I have a low tolerance for pining and moping.

All that aside, Kira is indeed awesome. I can't say she's my favorite character (because that would be Chief O'Brien) but she definitely has the best series-long character arc on DS9. The episodes from the first two or three seasons of the show in which Kira has to come to grips with the ways in which times have changed since her days in the Bajoran resistance and she learns to live in the (metaphorical) new universe in which she finds herself are my votes for the best of the series.
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JadedDM

Re: Star trek

Post by JadedDM » Tue Jun 13, 2017 4:19 pm

Even as a kid, I didn't understand the Worf and Troi thing. Like...what do they even talk about? Do they have anything in common outside of working on the same bridge? I just try and picture them going on a date and come up blank. It's practically a crack pairing, really.
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Wide And Nerdy

Re: Star trek

Post by Wide And Nerdy » Tue Jun 13, 2017 6:49 pm

John wrote:
Wide And Nerdy wrote:I think it had its place in the character arcs of Worf and Odo both. Worf had gone through an arc of being dishonored and estranged from his people, feeling like he had little connection to humans inspite of his relationships with specific ones and having been actively rejected by his people essentially because they had less honor than he did (which plays into the earlier arc of Worf starting to realize that he had this romanticized notion of Klingon honor that real Klingons didn't share.) Romance was part of Worf starting to build his own family in the life he was forced to accept.

For Odo, its clear they wanted to have a character on the show that didn't feel loyal to the Federation or even much to the Bajorans. Kira ended up being the reason he stayed, I'm just glad that Odo's arc didn't overwrite hers because with time she's become my favorite female Star Trek character.
Like I said, I'm older and wiser now--it's been, what, nearly 20 years?--and I can accept that sort of thing in principle. Even so, I still think that both the romances in question were handled fairly poorly. I don't think that Worf's extremely tentative romance with Troi had much of anything to do with his overall character arc. Or Troi's, for that matter. In fact, I'll go so far as to claim that either Worf,Troi, or both could have been replaced by generic human characters in just about any of the Worf-Troi scenes without requiring any edits to the dialogue. In other words, their romance was so generic that the fact that one of them was a Alien Warrior Guy and the other an Alien Empath Girl didn't really come into play at all. For what it's worth, I do like your spin on it, but I can't say I'm convinced that's what the writers were going for. Odo's romance with Kira was better--sort of--in the sense that his Changeling-ness was an essential part of it . . . eventually. For the longest time, however--for what I'm pretty sure was actual, literal years--the Odo-Kira romance consisted of Odo moping over Kira and Kira dating other guys. The romance, if it could be called such when Kira was completely oblivious to Odo's feelings, went nowhere until Season 6. I could have done with a lot less moping, you know? Like, maybe we could have had just one season's worth of high-school level awkwardness before Odo finally asked Kira out. Or it might have been more tolerable with different direction. I don't know. I have a low tolerance for pining and moping.

All that aside, Kira is indeed awesome. I can't say she's my favorite character (because that would be Chief O'Brien) but she definitely has the best series-long character arc on DS9. The episodes from the first two or three seasons of the show in which Kira has to come to grips with the ways in which times have changed since her days in the Bajoran resistance and she learns to live in the (metaphorical) new universe in which she finds herself are my votes for the best of the series.
Agreed about O'Brien.

Also, now that I think about it, I do kind of wish they'd stuck to the idea of Odo being more alien. The moping did kind of ruin a fun aspect of his character. It felt too human and cliche. I guess the only defense I can give again is that without Kira, Odo would have left a couple of seasons in and then became a recurring villain (which would actually be kind of awesome). They could have given him some other kind of connection. I'd say the desire to take down Quark but that would utterly change the character of their relationship. Odo definitely wants to take Quark down but Quark isn't his white whale.

I'm thinking Garak then Eddington. Garak could be this endless source of intrigue for Odo (they even play on it a few times) and once Odo is satisfied that the riddle of Garak is solved, Eddington betrays him and HE is the one who zealously pursues Eddington instead of Sisko.

SFDebris had an interesting idea where it was Kira pining for Odo and one day she confessed her feelings only for Odo to say "I thought we already were in a romantic relationship." Though now that I think about it, that would play into my gripe with Holmes in the Sherlock series where the world's greatest detective inexplicably doesn't understand human interaction (which you'd think would be utterly essential to being such a great detective). Its a bad play on the "socially inept nerd genius" trope.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Star trek

Post by Daemian Lucifer » Tue Jun 13, 2017 11:08 pm

While odo and garak do have great chemistry,they dont really have opposite desires.Odo wants order,garak likes order as well.Also,both are shunned by their people because they believe that the leadership of their people have gone astray.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Star trek

Post by Daemian Lucifer » Wed Jun 21, 2017 5:10 am

John wrote: Move along home.
I wish I could enjoy that episode.There are good parts in it,but they are rare and far apart.The episode itself is just boring* and simplistic.Also,the twist is only a twist because of the overabundance of the silly "if you die in the illusion,you die in real life" trope.

Still,the first season being rocky has become the norm for all of star trek except the original.And while the first season of ds9 is mostly meh,its definitely not as bad as the first season of tng.

*Its not that I want LAZORS and blood and action.In fact,the end challenge of them going through an "exciting" earthquake is the most boring one.But compared to the challenges they faced,even the chess thing from harry potter was exciting.Heck,even pipe dream wouldve been a better puzzle than the ones they had.
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John

Re: Star trek

Post by John » Wed Jun 21, 2017 2:52 pm

Although I agree that "Move Along Home" is, um, not very good at all, I nevertheless have a certain affection for it. It does a couple of things that I like a lot and that I wish Star Trek did bit more often. First, it has alien aliens. I mean, sure, the aliens in question look pretty human--more human, in fact, than many common Star Trek aliens like Klingons or Cardassians--but their behavior and attitude are refreshingly different. They do not want to chit-chat. They do not want to make small talk. They're not going to tell you about themselves or their civilization. They just want to gamble. Another thing that I like is that the episode doesn't--at least to the best of my recollection--waste a lot of time explaining what inevitably turns out to be low-budget space-Jumanji. Finally, I like that Dr. Bashir is still in his dork and inadvertent-jerk phase before he matured a little and they decided to retcon his backstory.
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JadedDM

Re: Star trek

Post by JadedDM » Wed Jun 21, 2017 5:59 pm

By the way, they have given Star Trek Discovery a new official release date: September 24th. Also, strangely, despite this being a streamed series, they are still treating it like a broadcasted show. The season will be split in two, with a winter break. I understand why networks do that kind of thing for broadcasted shows, but doing it for a streamed show seems kind of pointless.
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krellen
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Re: Star trek

Post by krellen » Wed Jun 21, 2017 9:46 pm

Possibly they aren't done shooting/editing the season yet and need more time to finish the back half.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Star trek

Post by Daemian Lucifer » Thu Jun 22, 2017 1:23 am

krellen wrote:Possibly they aren't done shooting/editing the season yet and need more time to finish the back half.
If it follows the other shows it should have over 20 episodes in the season,so doing it like that does make sense.
John wrote:First, it has alien aliens.
Still not as alien as the darmok ones though.Or the borg collective.
John wrote:Finally, I like that Dr. Bashir is still in his dork and inadvertent-jerk phase before he matured a little and they decided to retcon his backstory.
It is fun watching some of the early characters knowing what they would become later.Also quark is awesome.I cant imagine how this looked to people who came to ds9 after tng.A ferengi that is not laughably bad??!!
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Supahewok

Re: Star trek

Post by Supahewok » Thu Jun 22, 2017 1:26 am

Daemian Lucifer wrote:
krellen wrote:Possibly they aren't done shooting/editing the season yet and need more time to finish the back half.
If it follows the other shows it should have over 20 episodes in the season,so doing it like that does make sense
Only 17 episodes (and 2 of those are the premier).
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Star trek

Post by Daemian Lucifer » Fri Jun 23, 2017 1:37 pm

I remember now why I liked ds9 so much when I watched it back in my youth:
Benjamin the Fist Sisko wrote:I don't need you to interpret the prime directive for me,doctor.
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