Anime might be cool

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SpammyV
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Re: Anime might be cool

Postby SpammyV » Wed Jul 05, 2017 5:54 pm

Man. Turn A Gundam is really depressing.

One thing about the Universal Century is that the wars between the Federation and Zeon are always more about the nations than the people. Your point of view is centered around the people fighting at the forefront and the political and military leaders of each side. And the causes of the wars themselves usually have little to do with the civilians themselves. Zeon talks the talk about Spacenoid independence, but the worst we see from the Federation government is mismanagement and neglect, there aren't Feddie troops patrolling the streets of each colony and pulling out people to beat them in alleys because they were accused of saying a Sieg Zeon.

But we do see how the conflict between the Terrans and the Moon Race is reaching the common people. The military of the Moon Race sees all Terrans as barbarians, basically only a step above animals. The people of Earth just see the Moon Race as alien invaders who destroy their cities and force them off of the land they've lived on for generations. The negotiations were nearly killed at the start by the Moon Race arriving unannounced and dropping one of their WaDoms into a city, which it all but destroyed. Then the negotiations were nearly killed when one of the village elders on the Terran side up and shot the Moon Race's ambassador, claiming revenge for the wife and daughter he lost in that first battle.

Neither side is willing to give in, and neither side can trust the other. Loran reactivating the White Doll has let the genie out of the bottle that there are Mobile Suits on Earth that can be excavated and reactivated, so the Moon Race can no longer trust that they can just technologically overwhelm the Terrans, even though the White Doll hasn't really been in a straight fight yet(and I'm like 12 episodes in, this is a slow-burning show). And in the meantime, fights are about to break out almost daily between Terrans screaming hate towards Moon Race encampments and the Moon Race soldiers trying to fence off the land they claim. Not to mention that there's a not-insignificant party of Terrans and possibly Moon Race soldiers willing to kill the Moon Race's Queen Diana to make sure there is no peace. The Terrans won't give up their land, and the Moon Race won't drop their claims or believe they should offer anything in return.

It feels as though no matter what the leaders try to do, thanks to that first battle things have been set to inevitably deteriorate into a bloody, pointless war.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Anime might be cool

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Wed Jul 05, 2017 6:03 pm

Retsam wrote:Also, the Evangelion comparison works even better once you realize that (Attack on Titan spoilers) Titans are basically just fleshy mechas


And they seem to be controlled by some alien beast.

Retsam wrote:a good word to describe a stereotypical shonen protagonist is "tenacious": being someone who "never gives up" is a major character trait of a shonen stereotypical protagonist


So goku?
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The Rocketeer

Re: Anime might be cool

Postby The Rocketeer » Thu Jul 06, 2017 6:45 pm

So I was scrolling back through this thread, and bothered to google Fixx Bloodman, which I hadn't before. I gotta ask: is this character supposed to be a parallel with Degwin Zabi from MSG? They look almost just alike, but even if you reason that any two bald fat guys in a generalissimo uniform with a cane will probably look a lot alike in certain art styles, that drawing of him sitting in a chair is almost a perfect recreation of the peculiar off-center posture with which Degwin sat on his throne.
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Narratorway
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Re: Anime might be cool

Postby Narratorway » Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:57 pm

Retsam wrote:If your idea of anime is awful tropes and character animations, and that anything that doesn't have those must be trying to not be anime, maybe stop watching the shitty animes.


It's cool bro. Like I said, you are perfectly entitled to your wrong opinions.

UPDATE: I didn't see the follow up by Steve that's a bit less combative, so I suppose I might as well elaborate.

Steve C wrote:Narratorway has a point. If you are the kind of person that finds that really awful and inexcusable (like me and movie music) I can see how it can wreck a show. My point was that, yes, manga iconography is all over the place in anime. However anime doesn't stop being anime because it does not use manga iconography. Cutting the first 2 seconds out of that clip doesn't make it more western.


This kinda speaks to a fundamental misunderstanding of what I'm talking about. First, there seems to be this undercurrent implying that I don't like what I'd always been told were facefaults or something along those lines. They're a take it or leave it thing for me, but what they also are is an identifier. Y'know...a trope. Excluding them alone does not automatically make something 'not an anime', but I wasn't claiming that. I was just pointing out that there are tropes that are exclusive to anime and LWA exhibits a notable lack of said tropes...particularly in terms of how it's produced/animated.

Second, the examples of animation provided make it very clear that we're talking past each other when we say the words 'character animation'. Your examples seem to imply that you think Character Animation means a character being animated well. That's...not correct. Character Animation is a style, where the focus of the animation is on communicating who that character is and what they are about through the animation. Anime is famously known for not having that kind of focus in their productions while Western animation is. And this has nothing to do with whether its good animation. Character Animation is not a description of quality, but a definition of purpose.
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SpammyV
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Re: Anime might be cool

Postby SpammyV » Fri Jul 07, 2017 1:39 am

The Rocketeer wrote:So I was scrolling back through this thread, and bothered to google Fixx Bloodman, which I hadn't before. I gotta ask: is this character supposed to be a parallel with Degwin Zabi from MSG? They look almost just alike, but even if you reason that any two bald fat guys in a generalissimo uniform with a cane will probably look a lot alike in certain art styles, that drawing of him sitting in a chair is almost a perfect recreation of the peculiar off-center posture with which Degwin sat on his throne.


I really wouldn't describe Fixx FIXX BLOODMAN as being a parallel to Degwin Zabi. Both FIXX BLOODMAN of the New Earth Federation and Zidel Russo of the Space Revolutionary Army are both closer to Ghiren Zabi in terms of being analogues, in that they are both leaders who should see the writing on the wall and know that continuing the war is a bad move for their people, but won't let go of their hate or ambition in order to do so.
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4th Dimension

Re: Anime might be cool

Postby 4th Dimension » Sat Jul 15, 2017 10:15 pm

I have been animeing, instead of doing things I should be doing...

Anyway, watched Fate: Stay/Night original, because I wanted to see what's the fuss was about and you should start with the first one right. On second thought, it seems that it's not the case.
It had some cool scenes characters and fights despite all of that, but most of it was marred by the MC being, as a fellow member of Midchilda Discord said, a village idiot. God does he embody the annoying trope of DUMB clueless protagonist. Practically any choice that is not immediately moral (do I kill this person or not now that they are defenseless) is fucking terrible. Then again much fun was had screen capping his idiocy and the show.

On a more positive note, I have also finished WORKING. It has sat paused for a while because I frankly got tired of it. It's fun but it wasn't going anywhere. I know it's SoL, but it kept taunting us with possible developments for past two seasons and not delivering. And then they crammed all that into last season, and mostly in later episodes to the point that the LAST episode had to be made as a special, just to resolve the main thread of Inami.

On a MUCH more positive note, I have started watching/caught up to currently airing anime called Re:Creators. It's quite interesting one. The premise is what if few characters from Anime, games and other entertainment could reach our world (Japan really) and were told this is the world where their creator lives and their hardships were all for the entertainment of the "gods". Well some don't take it well and some decide to stop the first. And since the characters were from a variety of media (so far we have had a Magical Mecha pilot without her Mech, Sage/Mage, Shonen manga antagonist, Hard Boiled cynical detective from techno future, Magical Girl, Knight Lady (from a setting so over the top bloody it might be Warhammer), Mecha pilot WITH his skyscraper sized MECH, a witch/demon thing in a shape of a girl, and a fanfiction AU character that is a meme who sets it all off) duking it out from time to time. But it's not all fight scenes, (although they are fun especially since characters from such opposing works get to duke it out), but most of the time is spent on character interactions, discussing their goals and talking about creation process and such. So pretty interesting thing if you ask me, definitely worth checking out. Also another bonus, NO FANSERVICE that I have been able to notice.
Also, the BEST recap episode ever :)
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Retsam

Re: Anime might be cool

Postby Retsam » Sun Jul 16, 2017 1:55 am

4th Dimension wrote:Anyway, watched Fate: Stay/Night original, because I wanted to see what's the fuss was about and you should start with the first one right. On second thought, it seems that it's not the case.
It had some cool scenes characters and fights despite all of that, but most of it was marred by the MC being, as a fellow member of Midchilda Discord said, a village idiot. God does he embody the annoying trope of DUMB clueless protagonist. Practically any choice that is not immediately moral (do I kill this person or not now that they are defenseless) is fucking terrible. Then again much fun was had screen capping his idiocy and the show.


Are you trying to tell me this isn't a deep philosophical insight?

Image

But yeah, I haven't seen it, but I've gathered that the original Fate/Stay Night anime isn't considered that good, and the series overall is an absolute mess in terms of watch order and recommendations. There's just no consensus about how to properly watch it.

You probably already know this, but the original VN had three routes, Fate, Unlimited Blade Works, and Heaven's Feel. And as far as adaptions go, the "Studio DEEN" version is sort of an adaptation of the Fate route, but pulls in stuff from all three routes, (and it just isn't that good, apparently). Whereas a different studio, Ufotable, recently adapted the Unlimited Blade Works route, which I hear is a really good adaptation, they're working on a trilogy of movies adapting the third route. (The first of which should come out in October)

If you want to go onto Unlimited Blade Works, it's the same main character so I assume he's still an idiot, but I've heard it's a ton better than the original F/SN anime, overall. Particularly the animation of the action scenes is highly praised, from what I've seen.

---

The other options is the prequel, Fate/Zero, (written by Gen Urobuchi the writer for Psycho-Pass and Madoka), which is the only bit of the Fate series that I've actually seen. My feelings on it are a bit conflicted: there's a lot of Fate/Zero that I really like, and a number of things about it that bugged me.

The protagonist is a ton more interesting: unlike the apparently somewhat generic and idiotic teenage protagonist of F/SN, Kiritsugu is a highly competent middle-aged protagonist. He makes a very interesting pair with Saber (the same Saber for F/SN, though the other classes are different), due to their very strongly clashing philosophies (which is a theme of the show, in general): with his extreme utilitarian pragmatism contrasting with Saber's idealism. His backstory episodes (18 and 19) are easily my single favorite bit of the whole show. (They could probably be watched first or even standalone if someone were so inclined)

And overall the show is solid: the Fate/Stay Night "battle royale with mythological figures" premise is really cool, it's the same company as Unlimited Blade Works, so the production values are all high (some particularly good fight scenes), and it's got some good secondary characters and some interesting philosophical discussion.

As for what bugged me, the ending is a big part: for one, I really don't care for the eventual antagonist. Maybe there's some nuance that I just didn't get, but the antagonists motivations really just didn't make any sense to me. And the ending as a whole apparently only makes sense if you've read the entire original story Visual Novel. It works, somewhat, on a character or emotional level for the main character, but as far as understanding what the heck is going on, if you haven't dozens of hours playing a hard to find Visual Novel, you're out of luck, I guess.

Also, a minor complaint, but worth mentioning: the first episode kinda sucks. It's a double-length episode where they introduce basically the entire cast of characters and their motivations: it's probably the biggest infodump of an anime episode that I've ever seen.

But, overall, I'd still recommend Fate/Zero, despite the parts that bothered me. It's not a flawless show, by any means, but I definitely don't regret watching it.

---

And, yeah, I've had Re:Creators in my periphery, something I may get around to checking out eventually. Keep us posted.
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Ringwraith

Re: Anime might be cool

Postby Ringwraith » Sun Jul 16, 2017 11:22 am

Unlimited Blade Works is a bit different as it's more from Rin's perspective instead, as such, so there's more dealing with the fact he's an idiot rather than being stuck with the idiot all the time.
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4th Dimension

Re: Anime might be cool

Postby 4th Dimension » Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:56 am

Retsam wrote:Are you trying to tell me this isn't a deep philosophical insight?

Image

Well to be fair to the village idiot, I have recently heard, what he actually said was a reference to a Japanese expression "he wouldn't die if he was killed" meaning someone is stubborn tenacious. Sooo I'm actually willing to believe it makes a bit more sense in Japanese and blame translation, given what I have learned of it while trying to translate Gears of Destiny.

Retsam wrote:But yeah, I haven't seen it, but I've gathered that the original Fate/Stay Night anime isn't considered that good, and the series overall is an absolute mess in terms of watch order and recommendations. There's just no consensus about how to properly watch it.

You probably already know this, but the original VN had three routes, Fate, Unlimited Blade Works, and Heaven's Feel. And as far as adaptions go, the "Studio DEEN" version is sort of an adaptation of the Fate route, but pulls in stuff from all three routes, (and it just isn't that good, apparently). Whereas a different studio, Ufotable, recently adapted the Unlimited Blade Works route, which I hear is a really good adaptation, they're working on a trilogy of movies adapting the third route. (The first of which should come out in October)

If you want to go onto Unlimited Blade Works, it's the same main character so I assume he's still an idiot, but I've heard it's a ton better than the original F/SN anime, overall. Particularly the animation of the action scenes is highly praised, from what I've seen.

Yeah, I know about the routes, that is to say those are their names. Also given some comments by a fellow Midchildian, the caster subarc was basically ripped from one of those me thinks.

Ringwraith wrote:Unlimited Blade Works is a bit different as it's more from Rin's perspective instead, as such, so there's more dealing with the fact he's an idiot rather than being stuck with the idiot all the time.

Well I like Rin and I like Archer so I might check it out sometime. Even though Archer's ability is f-ing silly, like something a 10 year old kid might think of, I can summon a shitton of SWORDS coz SWORDS are cool, he stole the show from the moment he landed in that room in and despite landing in a random location looking like he owned the place and the broken thing he was sitting on was his THRONE.

Retsam wrote:The other options is the prequel, Fate/Zero, (written by Gen Urobuchi....
NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE. His kind of jam is not my kind of jam. I only watched Madoka because I KNEW the synopsis and was there to see how Kubey baits gives the girls their powers which then doom them.

Retsam wrote:And overall the show is solid: the Fate/Stay Night "battle royale with mythological figures" premise is really cool, it's the same company as Unlimited Blade Works, so the production values are all high (some particularly good fight scenes), and it's got some good secondary characters and some interesting philosophical discussion.

Yeah, it's a cool idea. It allows you to pit all sorts of heroes and villains (probably) from history and mythology. Although I do have some issues with stakes, and the fact that civilians keep getting squashed in their stupid war.

Retsam wrote:As for what bugged me, the ending is a big part: for one, I really don't care for the eventual antagonist. Maybe there's some nuance that I just didn't get, but the antagonists motivations really just didn't make any sense to me. And the ending as a whole apparently only makes sense if you've read the entire original story Visual Novel. It works, somewhat, on a character or emotional level for the main character, but as far as understanding what the heck is going on, if you haven't dozens of hours playing a hard to find Visual Novel, you're out of luck, I guess.

The eventual antagonist is I think the same guy that was the final antagonist in Fate/Stay Night. The stupid OP HAX Gillgamesh with what's his face.

Retsam wrote:And, yeah, I've had Re:Creators in my periphery, something I may get around to checking out eventually. Keep us posted.

Well 15 episodes of it are out soooo....
I like it so far. In a way it's premise is similar to Fate, in that it's a vehicle for characters from different Japanese popular media to duke it out. Except that it's actually more interested in character interaction than fighting. It's interested in exploring how would different types of characters react. For example loads of nominal Heroes, end up on the bad side because the HAX meme "Military Uniform Princess" basically tells them that the Gods (denizens of our world and their Creators (writers and artists)) are the ones to blame for the woes of their worlds and that all the woes are simply there for the entertainment of the Gods, and that they might be able to preasure them to fix this shit. Of course that is not entirely correct and she has her own agenda only tangentially connected to this, but it does give reason for the mixing of Heroes and villains. And the characters do change over time because they are now in a new situation.
Also this is one of rare cases where the goverment is not the obstructionist strawman that is there to persecute everyone and in general cause problems. In fact they might be taking things a bit too much in stride that it might seem like it's glorifying a bit the GLORIOUS NIPON GOVERNMENT (that never did anything wrong, nope no siree). Then again without the "Good" Creations, they and the world would be screwed.
Although the show is starting to trip some of my alarms. For one the firepower/power disparity between the good guys and the "bad" guys is HEAVILY slanted in "bad" guys advantage so far. On one hand it is good to have something for the good guys to beat, but on another, if it persists and the good guys start being kicked and beaten constantly only to pull out at the last moment, the eventual victory will feel hollow if it's just due to someone getting some OP power from basically nowhere right at the end. That is not hero winning. That is writer giftwrapping the victory for the hero being.
Also I have heard the accusations of it being slow. Which I have not experienced since I bingewatched the 15 episodes, but I kinda can see where they are coming from if the person arriving to it was expecting for there to be constant fights, while as I said the show is more interested in talking about how the creative process works, how different characters from different genres with radically different personalities and world views would interact.
Another thing that is starting to gnaw on me, is that they are yet to properly explain, justify to me the HAX powers of the "Military Uniform Princess". Some of it I can grok she is basically a fanfiction that reached status of a small meeme on pixiv, that doesn't have a Creator any longer and as such has no story and so any work that uses her gives her new powers, but they haven't yet explained why her and how did she become aware and able to do what she does, out of hundreds and thousands of similar fanfic characters.

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