Anime might be cool

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Narratorway
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Re: Anime might be cool

Postby Narratorway » Mon Jun 19, 2017 7:09 am

Daemian Lucifer wrote:Like night and day.


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John

Re: Anime might be cool

Postby John » Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:50 pm

SpammyV wrote: . . . because this is also the franchise that gave us the Zakrello.

So I looked at the robot picture. Of course I looked at the robot picture. (I don't know why some people are so hung up on "cute girls" when there are robots they could be looking at, but whatever.) But, o Spammy, this is possibly the first Mobile Suit (Armor?) that you've shown me that has been weird without also being weirdly charming. Or maybe the thumbnail doesn't do it justice and it's somehow charming when it's in motion. Tell me it's charming when it's in motion, Spammy.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Anime might be cool

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:55 pm

John wrote: (I don't know why some people are so hung up on "cute girls" when there are robots they could be looking at, but whatever.)


Cute robot girls it is:

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Ringwraith

Re: Anime might be cool

Postby Ringwraith » Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:26 pm

With actual logical explanations for looking like people too!
Choice of gender unexplained until they decide to fill in some backstory for the earlier models in a later thing.
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John

Re: Anime might be cool

Postby John » Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:13 pm

Daemian Lucifer wrote:Cute robot girls it is:

Gah. That thing is creepy. I think it's the human face and the little bow around the neck. It doesn't look like a robot; it looks like a person whose limbs have been amputated and replaced by prosthetics.

I'm just going to sit here shuddering for a while.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Anime might be cool

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:17 pm

John wrote:
Daemian Lucifer wrote:Cute robot girls it is:

Gah. That thing is creepy. I think it's the human face and the little bow around the neck. It doesn't look like a robot; it looks like a person whose limbs have been amputated and replaced by prosthetics.

I'm just going to sit here shuddering for a while.


Sooo,if I understood you correctly,your thoughts are:

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SpammyV
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Re: Anime might be cool

Postby SpammyV » Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:35 pm

John wrote:
SpammyV wrote: . . . because this is also the franchise that gave us the Zakrello.

So I looked at the robot picture. Of course I looked at the robot picture. (I don't know why some people are so hung up on "cute girls" when there are robots they could be looking at, but whatever.) But, o Spammy, this is possibly the first Mobile Suit (Armor?) that you've shown me that has been weird without also being weirdly charming. Or maybe the thumbnail doesn't do it justice and it's somehow charming when it's in motion. Tell me it's charming when it's in motion, Spammy.


Ha, no. The Zakrello is stupid and odds are extremely good that the suits made them put it in for merchandise purposes because the Zakrello literally just appears in the hangar of Char's ship in one episode and his reaction is, "Wait we had another Mobile Armor in there?" When it gets blown up he shrugs and says, "I'm not going to get upset over losing a Mobile Armor I didn't know existed."

But if you need a pick-me-up just do what I do and imagine that, if Zeon had mass-produced the B I G Z A M then the One Year War could have ended with a chorus line of B I G Z A M s doing the can-can on top of the burning ruins of Federation HQ.
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Ringwraith

Re: Anime might be cool

Postby Ringwraith » Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:59 pm

John wrote:
Daemian Lucifer wrote:Cute robot girls it is:

Gah. That thing is creepy. I think it's the human face and the little bow around the neck. It doesn't look like a robot; it looks like a person whose limbs have been amputated and replaced by prosthetics.

I'm just going to sit here shuddering for a while.

I do like the idea they're not quite there yet (as the setting is contemporary), especially as it was designed as a weapons platform that had to be able to use a psychological power, but would have to self-identify as a human psyche in order for it to manifest, a tank that could tank would think it's a tank, for example. So they try as much as possible to make a "human" design.
Also there's an earlier one lacking finger-guns. Yes, that weapon is rocket-powered.
Last edited by Ringwraith on Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:17 am, edited 3 times in total.
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John

Re: Anime might be cool

Postby John » Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:13 am

SpammyV wrote:But if you need a pick-me-up just do what I do and imagine that, if Zeon had mass-produced the B I G Z A M then the One Year War could have ended with a chorus line of B I G Z A M s doing the can-can on top of the burning ruins of Federation HQ.

The, er, Big Zam is an interesting case. It's weird, that's for sure. But I think I would have to actually see it doing the can-can before I could call it weirdly charming. To my mind, the thing that elevates the Big Zam over the Zakrello is that this picture of the Big Zam looks much less obviously half-assed than the earlier picture of the Zakrello.

Daemian Lucifer wrote:Sooo, if I understood you correctly, your thoughts are: [Insert Meme Here].

Oddly enough, Adam Jensen really is less creepy than that anime girl-robot-gun-fingered--gun-fingered?--thing, even though he looks less cartoonish. I think it's because of the hip and shoulder joints. The robot girl's limbs look like they can just pop right off. Jensen's seem more firmly attached. Now there's probably a solid, practical case to be made for hot-swappable, plug-n-play limbs for, y'know, robots. So if the robot girl had a robot face, I think I'd be okay with it. But because she's got a human face--or at least a face clearly intended to be human, this being anime--it's total nightmare fuel.
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SpammyV
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Re: Anime might be cool

Postby SpammyV » Sun Jun 25, 2017 4:32 am

Here's my extraordinary claim for the day: Gundam X is a worthy thematic follow-up to War in the Pocket.

War in the Pocket was about reminding the audience that people are dying in Gundam shows. We see the bodies, we see the blood, we spend time getting to know people only to watch them die pointlessly. For every cool mobile suit with a neat gun or an awesome head, and for every sweet looking fight scene, people are dying.

Gundam X is about remind the audience that all the Newtype obsession is effecting people. Gundam X offers a multitude of snapshots of what the word Newtype means to different people, and how that obsession with Newtypes causes harm to the world.

We see where Newtype just means power to people. According to Gundam X, even if you create an Artificial Newtype without mental instability, they'll still suffer bouts of paralyzing pain periodically through their lives, potentially more often the more that they are around other Newtypes. Meaning that, if you believe that Newtypes are a more connected, empathetic form of humanity, Artificial Newtypes created for war need to live in isolation - The opposite of some people's Newtype ideal.

To some people, Newtypes are a threat. It's all good and well to talk about how Newtypes are the next evolution of humanity- But what about the rest of the world? Eventually for people it will turn into a proclamation that, "THIS is the future! ...And everything else is obsolete." People generally don't take to being told that they are obsolete, unneeded, and only fit to be disposed of. And for those people, if a Newtype would be allowed to exist at all, it is only in the form of a tool to serve the rest of humanity.

And tangentially to that, people's obsession with Newtypes is what created the show's main villains. The Frost Brothers have a superhuman power, but because they weren't Newtypes they were essentially discarded by the military, and it's their shame and frustration that drives them to be the major antagonists.

Newtype, as an ideal, is also a tool to control people, or fuel for Spacenoids to spit hate at Earthnoids.

But the show explicitly says that all of this is a mistake. In the finale, they communicate with the consciousness of the first Newtype, who directly says that the concept of Newtypes was something seized on by people looking for a purpose, that he was just a human with some special talents, and that the obsession over Newtypes should have died with him. Also in the end, when Jamil is face to face with the leaders of the New Earth Federation and the Space Revolutionary Army, he cuts off their arguing with, "A Newtype is not God! Nor are they your tool!"

In a sense, the show really contrasts with ZZ Gundam. If I remember the interview correctly, Tomino said that he had all the kids in ZZ Gundam turn out to be Newtypes as an inspiration to the younger members of the audience, that they could be something better. Whereas Gundam X walks in and looks at Cyber Newtype experiments and Haman's Magneto speeches to Judau and then presents some destructive results of Newtype mania.
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Narratorway
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Re: Anime might be cool

Postby Narratorway » Fri Jun 30, 2017 8:38 am

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Only two episodes in and I can officially declare Little Witch Academia best anime...if it even is that. I'm genuinely curious is Japanese forums are going to have shitfits over whether this show is...whatever the Japanese call western animation...in the same way we have copious debates over Avatar: The Last Airbender, cause this is the least anime to have ever anime'd.

I'll admit, I haven't watched an anime show with any regularity in damn near decades - yes with a plural - so maybe there's been some mighty shifts in the way anime's produced, but I do have the internet and even absorbing the periphery, I get the impression that there's very few anime shows that are this...well...animated! Everything about the way these characters are drawn, move and even fucking sound is bursting at the seams with movement and life and vim and vigor and aaaaalll dat gud sheeit...and I'm only two episodes in! I just can't think of another series from ye land of dat raisin son that looks like this show. Even Denmou Coil for all its focus on character animation was still steeped in piles of anime tropes that made it feel more like a simply better produced version of what was already out there. This? This feels like...they're trying to not make an anime?

Whatever the hell it is, I love the hell out of it!
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Re: Anime might be cool

Postby SpammyV » Mon Jul 03, 2017 4:13 am

Turn A Gundam is almost too weird in concept to be believed. I can't imagine what some viewer thought in 1999 who just heard there was a new Gundam series airing and jumped in without any foreknowledge.

It starts with Loran and two others descending from the moon and landing on Earth in a strange looking mobile suit skim over the next two years where he integrates into Earth life. But not an Earth we've seen in Gundam before. An Earth just on the edge of a full industrial revolution, where biplanes and automobiles are the latest technological wonders, but haven't yet displaced ancient traditions. Yet despite how idyllic it is the militia is building up: Biplanes, anti-air cannons, and searchlights. And then we find out why: They're preparing for The War of the Worlds.

Suddenly the Moon Race attacks, and Turn A Gundam doesn't get any less strange or alien once you get a look at the WaDom, which doesn't look like anything that came from the Federation or Zeon. But things then go... well... about how well things went in The War of the Worlds, but without the disease. Hell, the WaDom can't fire its main cannon without causing horrific collateral damage, even things not touched directly by the beam crumble or burst into flames from the energy given off.

The helplessness of the people on Earth makes the return to normalcy for this franchise starting of war again more affecting in Turn A Gundam. It's so sudden and one-sided, and the pattern of conflict reestablishes itself. The Moon Race claim the earth was theirs 2000 years ago and possess overwhelming technological superiority, but the people on Earth take the order to leave the land they've lived on for generations exactly as well as you'd expect. And then the White Doll begins to reactivate with the WaDom's proximity, and Loran ends up piloting the machine to try to save the Earthnoids.

Also ha ha ha I get it, they called the Moon Race "Gallians" before they revealed them and Gallia was a region in another post-apocalyptic Tomino show, Xabungle.

But my only issue is that I'm four episodes in and I don't see the Gundam anywhere?
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John

Re: Anime might be cool

Postby John » Mon Jul 03, 2017 10:58 pm

I seem to recall that when Turn A Gundam came out a lot of people didn't like the mobile suit designs. I guess I can see why--there's a sort of origami look to them--but I don't mind. I happen to think that the Turn A itself is an extremely Gundam Gundam. Although the mustache is a bit fashion-forward. Hm. Hipster Gundam?
Steve C

Re: Anime might be cool

Postby Steve C » Mon Jul 03, 2017 11:52 pm

Narratorway wrote:Only two episodes in and I can officially declare Little Witch Academia best anime...if it even is that. I'm genuinely curious is Japanese forums are going to have shitfits over whether this show is...whatever the Japanese call western animation...in the same way we have copious debates over Avatar: The Last Airbender, cause this is the least anime to have ever anime'd.

I'll admit, I haven't watched an anime show with any regularity in damn near decades - yes with a plural - so maybe there's been some mighty shifts in the way anime's produced, but I do have the internet and even absorbing the periphery, I get the impression that there's very few anime shows that are this...well...animated! Everything about the way these characters are drawn, move and even fucking sound is bursting at the seams with movement and life and vim and vigor and aaaaalll dat gud sheeit...and I'm only two episodes in! I just can't think of another series from ye land of dat raisin son that looks like this show. Even Denmou Coil for all its focus on character animation was still steeped in piles of anime tropes that made it feel more like a simply better produced version of what was already out there. This? This feels like...they're trying to not make an anime?

I was curious about this anime based on your post. So I watched the first episode. I have to admit I also haven't seen any anime in forever and Little Witch's Academia looks perfectly normal to me. I don't see what you see. It has the same style as something from ~15yrs ago. I don't see anything particularly western about it in terms of art, nor style. It's got some pretty heavily used anime tropes in it.

I'm not saying it's bad or anything. I just don't see what you are referring to.
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Retsam

Re: Anime might be cool

Postby Retsam » Tue Jul 04, 2017 5:44 am

I haven't actually seen Little Witch Academia, but I've seen a few people say that it reminds them of "saturday morning" cartoons, so, yeah, it might feel a bit more Western in terms of content. (I'm sure there's some Harry Potter in its DNA, too)

But in terms of animation, I don't see it, either. Admittedly, the only bit I've seen of LWA is the part that references Gurren Laggan, but nothing of the animation style strikes me as particularly strange or Western either. It's hardly surprising that a modern show might seem a lot smoother and more vibrant if you're primarily comparing it to decades old stuff, animation has come a long quite a bit in terms of technique (and budgets) in the last decade or two.
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Narratorway
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Re: Anime might be cool

Postby Narratorway » Tue Jul 04, 2017 9:07 am

I suppose it'd be clearer to say what it doesn't do. To wit: It is a slice of life anime revolving around young girls featuring largely physical comedy and through the entire 13ep run they have on netflix I never once saw this:

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Or this:
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Or this:
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Or any of the other thousands of identifiers of established anime tropes, but most particularly the ones revolving around cutting corners on character animation. Like or dislike 'em, they are a means to end and that end is cost reduction...or fanservice. Point being, these characters are fully animated and everything about who the they are on screen is designed for and expressed through animation that's never compromised by using techniques such as the ones shown...like, ever. Whatever you think about anime, it's not a medium known for a focus on character animation, especially for slice of life comedies!

And that's ignoring the very clearly english-speaking setting of...England and the coooonstant references to Western shows/media.

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There's a powerfull girls reference too, but I can't find a gif. Needless to say, shit be very west side up in dis.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Anime might be cool

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Tue Jul 04, 2017 11:09 am

Narratorway wrote:Whatever you think about anime, it's not a medium known for a focus on character animation


To me thats more the sign of quality than animu/western animation(wanimu?).There are plenty of western showelvare that have still images and looping simple animations.Otherwise,people wouldnt gush about the last airbender so much.

Narratorway wrote:And that's ignoring the very clearly english-speaking setting of...England and the coooonstant references to Western shows/media.


Ehhh,animus have settings that go all over the place.There are plenty of western animus.And by that I mean ones set in the ye old western town of kewboys and injuns.But old gothic castles of europe are not rare either.
Steve C

Re: Anime might be cool

Postby Steve C » Tue Jul 04, 2017 11:53 am

I've seen a lot of anime that doesn't do any of the crappy corner cutting you mentioned. I've also seen lots of anime where it's dripping in it. I agree that it's crappy and cuts away some of the quality of a show. While I don't like it, I'm not super critical of it either. Anime certainly suffers from it more than western animated shows. I can't really see it as a defining characteristic of anime though. Little Witch's Academia seemed to be rote standard anime to me.
Steve C

Re: Anime might be cool

Postby Steve C » Tue Jul 04, 2017 11:56 pm

Based on comment here I started watching Attack on Titan. It's ok. I don't think it's particularly good. It's a bit like Flash in that I can see it's flaws, don't think it's particularly good and yet I'm enjoying it for it's merits regardless. I'm a sucker for shows that throw the good guys into meat grinders. That plus lots of "Oh. That's not exactly what I expected," small surprise moments where I think X is going to happen and really it's Y. I really like it when I'm wrong about those sorts of things and it still makes (internal) sense.

It reminds me a lot of Blue Gender. I don't know if that is a fair comparison or not. It's been ~16yrs since I've seen that show. Attack on Titan definitely reminds me of it though.
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Scerro

Re: Anime might be cool

Postby Scerro » Wed Jul 05, 2017 6:31 am

Attack on Titan has such poor main characters that I can't really care too much for the whole series. Eren is revenge blind drivel, Mikasa is an emotionless foil to that already boring character. Armin starts out boring and ends up being the best character by the end of the first season, and I'm not particularly drawn to his archetype. Its only saving grace is the 3D maneuver gear and using it to slay the titans. The anime struck me as moving too slow, and thought that killing a character is the same thing as character development.

For a friend I watched some of Eromanga Sensei. It's all too meta, and meaningless anime trope garbage.
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Retsam

Re: Anime might be cool

Postby Retsam » Wed Jul 05, 2017 6:34 am

If your idea of anime is awful tropes and character animations, and that anything that doesn't have those must be trying to not be anime, maybe stop watching the shitty animes.

Though, I do see the Manga inconography to be more of a valid stylistic choice which is meant to give the anime a more of a comic feel to it in addition to cutting costs (though it certainly does that too). But it's a stylistic choice, and not even one all comedies go for (and it's perfectly fair to not particularly like that stylistic choice).

And plenty of animes have had good character animation in the past: Cowboy Bebop and Naruto come to mind.

LWA just isn't particularly out-of-the-ordinary for averting anime tropes, having western influences, and good character animation. There's a lot of anime with those visual tropes and bad character animation, but there's a lot without it too. For example, Attack on Titan, which I just finished: there's definitely no pantyshots or mangaface, it's got pretty strong Western influences (very Germanic in style), and I'd say it's got pretty good character animation, too.

---

And, yeah, Attack on Titan S2, pretty solid. I definitely think this season was better written than the first. The first had great action sequences and was basically a great summer blockbuster, but this one, while still having that, also handled it's characters a lot better. The main character is a lot more manageable in smaller doses, I think.
Steve C

Re: Anime might be cool

Postby Steve C » Wed Jul 05, 2017 9:43 am

Ah. Manga iconography. I knew what it was but didn't know it's formal name. I don't like it very much. I find it distracting and jarring and I personally don't think it succeeds in adding what it is supposed to add (except for cost cutting.) So I get what Narratorway is saying. I do accept it as a valid style choice. I don't like it, but I don't loathe it either. I dislike it far more when movies use music as a replacement for emotions.

As for Attack on Titan, every bit criticism and every bit praise I've read about that show is valid. I want to bring extra attention to Retsam's gif. That's great animation and bad animation in the same 6 second clip. The last 4 seconds are beautiful and fluid. The first 2 seconds are just a cheat. It's a shaking and rotating camera around a static image. It's a good clip. It's 2 seconds of bad + 4 seconds of great which averages out to 'good'. I'm willing to forgive that kind of thing in anime. It is still 'good' after all. I do notice it and don't ignore it when thinking about the quality of the whole.

Narratorway has a point. If you are the kind of person that finds that really awful and inexcusable (like me and movie music) I can see how it can wreck a show. My point was that, yes, manga iconography is all over the place in anime. However anime doesn't stop being anime because it does not use manga iconography. Cutting the first 2 seconds out of that clip doesn't make it more western.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Anime might be cool

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Wed Jul 05, 2017 9:57 am

Scerro wrote:Attack on Titan has such poor main characters that I can't really care too much for the whole series.


Then season two is perfectly made for you.Not only has the focuses shifted from those three,but eren is also called out by other characters.

Also,while I didnt watch evangelion,Ive absorbed some things through osmosis.Am I correct in thinking that eren is like shinji,only slightly more competent.
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Retsam

Re: Anime might be cool

Postby Retsam » Wed Jul 05, 2017 4:42 pm

Daemian Lucifer wrote:Am I correct in thinking that eren is like shinji,only slightly more competent.


Eren and Shinji definitely have some similarities; they both take the standard shonen protagonist trope and play with it ("deconstruct it" some would say, but I know that term is a bit of a semantic landmine), and they're both protagonist with some serious psychological issues. They do so in rather opposite ways: a good word to describe a stereotypical shonen protagonist is "tenacious": being someone who "never gives up" is a major character trait of a shonen stereotypical protagonist (or even the defining character trait a lot of the time). Shinji is a protagonist who isn't tenacious at all due to his depression, while Eren has the opposite issue: he's so tenacious that it's actually a character flaw as it basically makes him a complete rage monster.

Also, the Evangelion comparison works even better once you realize that (Attack on Titan spoilers) Titans are basically just fleshy mechas

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And, yeah, like he's a lot better handled in Season 2. In Season 1, Eren just felt like an exaggerated stereotype, but Season 2 made it a lot more obvious to me that the show is portraying it as a character flaw. Other characters call him out for it, and even Eren recognizes that his anger often gets himself in trouble. And, again, it really helps that Season 2 does a lot better of sharing the spotlight with other, often more interesting, characters.

There's a pretty hilarious moment where Eren flips out on someone (for admittedly, very good reasons), he starts trying to beat them up with freaking stumps for arms, but the show just switches focus to a couple of secondary characters who start having a very serious and calm discussion, all while Eren is in the background yelling stuff like "Die! Die! Die!" and getting beat up. It's a great moment, and it really illustrates the show's shift in focus onto the secondary characters (and self-awareness about how annoying Eren is).

Eren's an annoying character, but I don't mind annoying characters, if they're annoying for a purpose. Tidus in FFX, for example, didn't bother me, because his immaturity is a pretty integral part of the plot. Season 2 has given me a lot more faith that the same might be true of Eren.

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