Also Not The 9 O'Clock News

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Trix2000
Location: California

Re: Also Not The 9 O'Clock News

Postby Trix2000 » Sun Feb 12, 2017 8:32 pm

Daemian Lucifer wrote:Which at the same time gives them the most money to deal with it.But even ignoring that,its their own fault.They chose to let everyone put anything on there,without any forethought about what to do if someone puts something there that doesnt work,or is stolen,or uses copyrighted stuff,or is a scam,...
I think it's a little disingenuous to assume they haven't put any consideration into this, given that it affects their reputation (and ultimately bottom line). Especially since they HAVE been trying measures to curate things and remove problematic stuff they're aware of (with... debatable success, perhaps).

And haven't we already learned that just throwing money at a problem doesn't necessarily make it go away?

They were pressured to allow more games onto Steam because it's the biggest marketplace - indie devs wanted an easier road onto it because it was one of the best ways to get your game noticed/sold (less so nowadays). So things like Greenlight were an attempt to allow this easier, to give more devs (particularly indies) the ability to have games on Steam without running into a huge barrier to entry. The results are arguable (I personally would call Greenlight an okay stepping stone, but not a wholly successful solution), but I really think that allowing easier access to developers is what causes more cases of broken/stolen/etc games than anything else. Valve can try to tamp down what they can as best they can (you can argue how well they are or aren't doing on this), but the fact remains that the more open the store gets the more likely this stuff will get through. I mean... how do you police this much content, have someone play every game to completion? There's thousands of them, with more coming in every day.

Should they go back to the old walled garden? I don't know if that's any better, since it leaves a lot of good games out in the cold. Not to mention the cat's already out of the bag.

Again, I'm not saying Valve is doing it right here, necessarily (I believe they have plenty of room for improvement, to put it mildly), but I disagree with the notion that they haven't even considered solving these problems. That seems very presumptive to me.
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Thomas

Re: Also Not The 9 O'Clock News

Postby Thomas » Sun Feb 12, 2017 9:07 pm

I'm okay with Valve opening Steam up to everybody now. The truth is, Valve is PC gaming now and they're going to take their 30% cut just like the other platform owners.

Given that, they might as well preserve the PC advantage of having access to everything. You already can't buy a game on steam and be guaranteed quality, so its not really a huge difference
Ninety-Three

Re: Also Not The 9 O'Clock News

Postby Ninety-Three » Sun Feb 12, 2017 9:08 pm

Daemian Lucifer wrote:Which at the same time gives them the most money to deal with it.But even ignoring that,its their own fault.They chose to let everyone put anything on there,without any forethought about what to do if someone puts something there that doesnt work,or is stolen,or uses copyrighted stuff,or is a scam,...


They have provably thought about copyright and theft. It's in the summary of the terms of service, which is only 150 words long.

Maybe spend thirty seconds Googling your uninformed assumptions before posting them as fact.
Steve C

Re: Also Not The 9 O'Clock News

Postby Steve C » Sun Feb 12, 2017 9:36 pm

Dude... uncool.
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Lachlan the Sane
Location: I come from the land down under, where women blow and men chunder

Re: Also Not The 9 O'Clock News

Postby Lachlan the Sane » Sun Feb 12, 2017 10:18 pm

Ninety-Three wrote:
Daemian Lucifer wrote:Which at the same time gives them the most money to deal with it.But even ignoring that,its their own fault.They chose to let everyone put anything on there,without any forethought about what to do if someone puts something there that doesnt work,or is stolen,or uses copyrighted stuff,or is a scam,...


They have provably thought about copyright and theft. It's in the summary of the terms of service, which is only 150 words long.

Maybe spend thirty seconds Googling your uninformed assumptions before posting them as fact.

The point isn't that they don't have rules about copyright theft and other scams; the problem is that those rules are never enforced. A sizable percentage of Greenlight games are cobbled together from Unity store and other free assets, completely unoptimised, with the dev console serving as the only menu system, and Valve has never done anything to stop them.
Ninety-Three

Re: Also Not The 9 O'Clock News

Postby Ninety-Three » Mon Feb 13, 2017 1:10 am

Steam certainly has a problem with shovelware, but it's a different (if often overlapping) issue than their problem with people deliberately abusing the system.

Maybe they'll set the Steam Direct fee such that it discourages shovelware (Greenlight was a one-time fee to post unlimited games, as opposed to Direct which is one fee per game), but they don't seem to be on a trajectory to do anything major about it. In an AMA last month, Newell said this when asked about quality control:

Gabe Newell wrote:There's really not a singular definition of quality, and what we've seen is that many different games appeal to different people. So we're trying to support the variety of games that people are interested in playing. We know we still have more work to do in filtering those games so the right games show up to the right customers.


That sounds like they're not interested in keeping the garbage off Steam and instead want to fix it with Steam Recommended Games and similar features. Serious question, has anyone ever gotten any value out of Steam's recommendations? I've never really heard people talk about it, and it's been pretty unhelpful to me, but I have no idea if that experience is universal.
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The Rocketeer

Re: Also Not The 9 O'Clock News

Postby The Rocketeer » Mon Feb 13, 2017 1:28 am

Ninety-Three wrote:Serious question, has anyone ever gotten any value out of Steam's recommendations? I've never really heard people talk about it, and it's been pretty unhelpful to me, but I have no idea if that experience is universal.
Mostly, it just keeps recommending Fable Anniversary, BioShock Infinite, and Lightning Returns: Final Fantasy XIII to me. Demonstrating not only that the system doesn't work, but also that you can't explode a remote server no matter how hard and how often you flip it off.
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Humanoid

Re: Also Not The 9 O'Clock News

Postby Humanoid » Mon Feb 13, 2017 3:54 am

My buying pattern for games is that I know before logging in what I want to buy, and so I never see any recommendations. That said, I believe I've only bought two games directly from Steam in the last two years. But for science I logged in and looked up the recommendations:

Gladiator Trainer (looks like one of those shovelware games we're talking about, a $2 game featuring anime girls in plate bikinis)
Mount and Blade: With Fire and Sword (reasonable)
Shadow of Mordor (I don't care for LoTR but not unreasonable)
The Witcher 3 (have it on GOG but reasonable)
ABZU (something about deep sea diving? Huh.)
NBA2K15 (basketball sucks, but more concerningly, it's an obsolete version of the game, and they're offering it for the low, low price of $70USD)
Snow (free-to-play game about snowboarding apparently)
Waveform (another $2 game, I see sine waves in the screenshots)
Ace Academy (anime schoolkids and mechs, remarkably not $2 but $20)
Rebel Galaxy (so I've heard of the name but know nothing of the game)
Oblivion (one of the worst games I've had the misfortune to purchase)
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4th Dimension

Re: Also Not The 9 O'Clock News

Postby 4th Dimension » Mon Feb 13, 2017 7:08 am

ABZU is a quite graphically nice "walking/swimming simulator". Rebel Galaxy is a 2D space game where you pilot a big ship and fight broadside fights in space. It's relaxing and not terribly deep and has a nice soundtrack fitting it's frontier theme.

I don't think I have ever looked into mine recommendations. The only thing on Steam that might get me to buy something that I'm not allready planning to buy when I log on into steam were their daily deals. If I see something there heavily discounted I might buy it.

Anyway what is on my Recommendation pile?
Insurgency - I think this is here because I own ArmA and DCS, but this one doesn't really interest me
Civilization VI - reasonable considering that I think I own other Civ titles on Steam too. Not on heavy discount, not interested.
For Honor - Eh? While I might like For Honor seeing how weighty it's combat seems, I don't know how Steam got the idea.
Squad - Similar as Insurgency
Combat Air Patrol 2: Military Flight Simulator - This does make sense since I do like flight sims, but this is in early access and I do not know how realistic the model is so I'm not interested yet.
Conan Exiles - What?
Planet Coaster - Ehhh, I don't get why is it here, and I'm not really interested
The Wild Eight - What is with these survival games. I don't think I own any.
H1Z1 - Where do you keep pulling these? Wait is this, or was this a mod for ArmA? It looks like it. That makes more sense but still not interested.
Running with rifles - At first I thought it was a small team tactics game, which would be interesting, but it seems to simply be a top down shooter. Not interested.
Sniper Elite 4 - If I was still playing FPS-es I might be interested since I heard good things abut this one
Darkest Dungeon - I was actually debating trying this one out a while ago, but the more I hear of it... still good job Steam on guessing I might be interested.

So that is 4,5/12 (I'm giving it 0,5 for CAP flight sim) are something I might be interested in and ~7/12 I can figure out why they are there. Not bad for an algorithm that doesn't know I don't buy things unless they are cheap and so doesn't have my full library of interests.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Also Not The 9 O'Clock News

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Mon Feb 13, 2017 9:06 am

Lachlan the Mad wrote:
Ninety-Three wrote:
Daemian Lucifer wrote:Which at the same time gives them the most money to deal with it.But even ignoring that,its their own fault.They chose to let everyone put anything on there,without any forethought about what to do if someone puts something there that doesnt work,or is stolen,or uses copyrighted stuff,or is a scam,...


They have provably thought about copyright and theft. It's in the summary of the terms of service, which is only 150 words long.

Maybe spend thirty seconds Googling your uninformed assumptions before posting them as fact.

The point isn't that they don't have rules about copyright theft and other scams; the problem is that those rules are never enforced. A sizable percentage of Greenlight games are cobbled together from Unity store and other free assets, completely unoptimised, with the dev console serving as the only menu system, and Valve has never done anything to stop them.


While those are a huge problem,I was actually referencing stuff that is against their rules,yet remains on steam for a big chunk of time until some of the customers spot it and report it,and then someone from steam takes bloody ages to notice the report and do something about it.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Also Not The 9 O'Clock News

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Mon Feb 13, 2017 9:54 am

Its finally out!The game everyone has been waiting for.Bloody boobs!So lets watch bloody boob Sterling play bloody boobs.
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Humanoid

Re: Also Not The 9 O'Clock News

Postby Humanoid » Tue Feb 14, 2017 12:20 am

4th Dimension wrote:ABZU is a quite graphically nice "walking/swimming simulator". Rebel Galaxy is a 2D space game where you pilot a big ship and fight broadside fights in space. It's relaxing and not terribly deep and has a nice soundtrack fitting it's frontier theme.


Was just looking through my Humble keys just now (to cross-check what parts of the Freedom Bundle I already own) and it turns out I have ABZU from last month's Monthly. So there's that.

I should probably also give away this XCOM 2 key since it's the headline title of the Monthly. Any takers?
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Thomas

Re: Also Not The 9 O'Clock News

Postby Thomas » Tue Feb 14, 2017 8:03 am

Obsidian are no longer working on Armoured Warfare and Chris Avellone still loathes Feargus Urquhart.

On the other hand Pillars of Eternity 2 is going through a really successful kickstarter, so maybe AW wasn't making so maybe they mutually decided not to work on it.
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Thomas

Re: Also Not The 9 O'Clock News

Postby Thomas » Tue Feb 14, 2017 11:45 am

Sorry, just because I like trying to puzzle out logic
4th Dimension wrote:Anyway what is on my Recommendation pile?
...
For Honor - Eh? While I might like For Honor seeing how weighty it's combat seems, I don't know how Steam got the idea.
...
Conan Exiles - What?
...
H1Z1 - Where do you keep pulling these? Wait is this, or was this a mod for ArmA? It looks like it. That makes more sense but still not interested.
...

These ones are probably trying to avoid the 'Lucy the Banker' problem (conjunction/base-rate fallacy). Those are all in the top 10 best selling games on Steam this week, so Steam is figuring that it's more likely that you'd be interested in some of the most popular games in PC gaming at the moment, than your specific tastes precluding you from that.

It's the same way that a nerdy guy with glasses is still likely to be a football (soccer) fan. Sure nerdy guys and guys with glasses are less likely to be sports fans, but so many people are football fans, it's still true that any random guy you meet is likely to be one.

If you meet a diehard pie lover in the UK, they're still more likely to be from London than from the North East England, because there are 6 million more people who live in London than the North East.

EDIT: Also one of the big mistakes companies make who do this stuff *coughfacebookcough*, is they don't put in enough error correction. Once you start showing people things based on their perceived preferences you lose the opportunities to see what they would have done if you showed them something that wasn't on the perceived preference list. This can start skewing the probabilities quickly.

Facebook is so bad at this I frequently end up in the Facebook death spiral, where I liked something so it shows more me of it, so I like more of their posts, so Facebook shows me even more of that, and even though I don't really like most of what it's showing me, it's showing me so much of that that I'm more likely to like one of those posts than anything else (because there's so much more of it than anything else), so Facebook thinks it's done a good job and my feed ends up filled with a single news outlet or one group of friends.
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4th Dimension

Re: Also Not The 9 O'Clock News

Postby 4th Dimension » Tue Feb 14, 2017 2:33 pm

Ahhh, I get it now it's like in adaptive algorithms where your cost function might get stuck on a local maximum/minimum if you constantly choose only the best solution, so you do need to introduce an element of randomness to the whole thing to get the state of the plateau.
That does make sense. It's trying to see if there are any other nieches that I might be interested in that are not owned on Steam.
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Ringwraith

Re: Also Not The 9 O'Clock News

Postby Ringwraith » Tue Feb 14, 2017 4:11 pm

They get the most information from the incorrect guesses, provided they have a system for positive/negative.
Gets trickier when you only have one metric.
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Thomas

Re: Also Not The 9 O'Clock News

Postby Thomas » Sun Feb 19, 2017 1:09 am

Erik Wolpaw has left Valve. With Marc Laidlaw leaving last year, that means only Chet Falliszek is left of their high profile game writers.

Erik Wolpaw was one of the people who others used to hold up as an example of how Valve must be making games internally still. Of course we've just learnt Valve are making games because they've announced 3 unnamed VR titles. It would lead me to conclude they're probably not single-player games, but Valve presumably have other writers and they could hire some if they didn't.
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lurkey

Re: Also Not The 9 O'Clock News

Postby lurkey » Mon Feb 20, 2017 7:04 am

Good thing Shamus bans religion debates here. They be dangerous.
Steve C

Re: Also Not The 9 O'Clock News

Postby Steve C » Mon Feb 20, 2017 8:21 am

No names given. It's just satire.
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lurkey

Re: Also Not The 9 O'Clock News

Postby lurkey » Mon Feb 20, 2017 9:32 am

Satire. Uh-huh.

Next argument - fake names, fake pictures?
Steve C

Re: Also Not The 9 O'Clock News

Postby Steve C » Mon Feb 20, 2017 10:33 am

I stand corrected.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Also Not The 9 O'Clock News

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Mon Feb 20, 2017 10:34 am

lurkey wrote:Satire. Uh-huh.


Thats clearly shopped.
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Thomas

Re: Also Not The 9 O'Clock News

Postby Thomas » Tue Feb 28, 2017 8:29 am

Torment: Tides of Numeria is out.

The previews suggested it's going to be great, it certainly sounds like they were working hard to live up to the name
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Also Not The 9 O'Clock News

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Tue Feb 28, 2017 6:37 pm

Near the start of the game,you get to examine a thing.A choice appears to do a thing,and your companions warn you that its deadly.You can then walk away,or do the thing.Doing it ends in your death,telling you how foolish that was.So yeah,its good.
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The Rocketeer

Re: Also Not The 9 O'Clock News

Postby The Rocketeer » Tue Feb 28, 2017 11:40 pm

That's one of the hallmarks of guaranteed quality, like the puzzle where you push a key onto a newspaper to pull it under a door, or scene transitions where lines of travel appear on old-timey maps.

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