Middle-Earth: Shadows of Mordor

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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Middle-Earth: Shadows of Mordor

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Mon Oct 13, 2014 1:48 pm

While its true that not much is done violence wise by the known characters in lord of the rings,they are all known by numerous names detailing their numerous battles,and the land is littered with weapons known for killing plethora of enemies.While those happened "off screen",they still did happen,and they were not forged through pacifism.

In shadow of mordor(just realized that the title of the topic is wrong)you play through the forging of such legends.You forge the legends for your sword,your "dagger" and your bow,as well as for yourself.So while it does not have the tone of the book,it does have the tone of the legends presented in the book.I think that makes it closer to the source than the movie .
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Thomas

Re: Middle-Earth: Shadows of Mordor

Postby Thomas » Mon Oct 13, 2014 3:29 pm

The tone of a piece is important right? What a book chooses to show 'on-screen' and what it chooses to show 'off-screen' is basically literally what makes up it's uniqueness. If for example, you took a film like Robocop and then made say, a remake called Robocop, where you kept the ideas and events but removed the brutality and the humour, then you haven't made a good adaptation of Total Recall.

Equally, if you take a series that doesn't have gore and brutality, very pointedly so because there's as you said, lots of opportunities where Tolkien could have been describing things like that, then it's not really a great adaptation. It still a great game, but it's violating the spirit of the adaptation by sticking to the literally events but not the feel and tone and focus and themes of the original

EDIT: Also didn't you say that you're not even a fan of the setting? Surely that's like a grade A hint that whats good about the game isn't the way it recreates the experience of the books, but how it does something totally different instead? Or did you mean 'Mordor' as the setting? I'm not really a fan of Mordor either, it's a great place to go narratively, but less so when you're going to be spending multiple hours looking at, well, Mordor
Last edited by Thomas on Mon Oct 13, 2014 3:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Sudanna

Re: Middle-Earth: Shadows of Mordor

Postby Sudanna » Mon Oct 13, 2014 3:40 pm

I am still not buying it. It's not that the characters are pacifistic - they're personally involved in a number of battles and kill a ton of orcs. But there's a serious difference between Gimli killing forty orcs in a huge battle and Talion killing a hundred by himself for no real reason by just walking in the front door of a stronghold, which is something I've done multiple times in the game already.
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Ringwraith

Re: Middle-Earth: Shadows of Mordor

Postby Ringwraith » Mon Oct 13, 2014 4:30 pm

It's more a playground to mess around with an interesting system (once it decides to stop being really terrible to start with at least).
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Middle-Earth: Shadows of Mordor

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Mon Oct 13, 2014 4:37 pm

There is always a good reason to kill a bunch of orcs:they exist.This is true even if you are playing as an orc.

Thomas wrote:EDIT: Also didn't you say that you're not even a fan of the setting?


I meant more the expanded universe,the silmarillion thing and the various other stories.Also the elves,I dislike them,though not as much as what theyve evolved into in other fantasy works.I like most of lord of the rings,and I like the hobbit,but the rest of the stuff not so much.

But yes,what I like about the game is not in the lore.Though the snippets you get about higron and his outcast bride are nice,and I like the dynamic between the two protagonists.
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Thomas

Re: Middle-Earth: Shadows of Mordor

Postby Thomas » Mon Oct 13, 2014 5:38 pm

Daemian Lucifer wrote:.Though the snippets you get about higron and his outcast bride are nice,and I like the dynamic between the two protagonists.

I like those bits a lot, I was surprised how fun a lot of the audio logs were, and Talion's counterpart is legitimately cool.
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4th Dimension

Re: Middle-Earth: Shadows of Mordor

Postby 4th Dimension » Mon Oct 13, 2014 7:05 pm

What we are playing in Shadow of MOrdor is not one of the noble main characters of Tolkien. But one of monsters. If Tolkien was writing this story, it wouldn't be following Talion but some third charachter who is simply trying to get through Mordor and is running into batallions of mutilated Orc corpses, and maybe glipses of a horryfying amalgamation of Human and wraith that strikes from shaddows. You would see orcs huddling and hiding in darkness and such. You would get some hints about what is gong on, and in the end the wraithTallon would be saved/made rest with help from the main character through his main characters nobility courage during the confrontation with the big bad. So yes our PoV is tone is wrong for the setting, but the story could work in LoTR.
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Thomas

Re: Middle-Earth: Shadows of Mordor

Postby Thomas » Mon Oct 13, 2014 10:56 pm

I'm not complaining about the story, I'm complaining about the way the gameplay gets across the world. The story is above par for a Tolkien knock-off, the gameplay is for a completely different setting entirely.

For example all the animations are designed to get across 'this is brutal and totally cool'. That sure as heck doesn't fit in the Tolkienverse.
Last edited by Thomas on Mon Oct 13, 2014 11:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Middle-Earth: Shadows of Mordor

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Mon Oct 13, 2014 11:01 pm

Thomas wrote:I'm not complaining about the story, I'm complaining about the way the gameplay gets across the world. The story is above par for a Tolkien knock-off, the gameplay is for a completely different setting entirely.


You mean,there is DRUMROLL ludonarrative dissonance?
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Retsam

Re: Middle-Earth: Shadows of Mordor

Postby Retsam » Mon Oct 13, 2014 11:44 pm

Yes. I think there's
Image
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4th Dimension

Re: Middle-Earth: Shadows of Mordor

Postby 4th Dimension » Tue Oct 14, 2014 9:30 pm

I'm liking and hating at the same time the nemesis system. On one hand it's awesome to see your nemesses again and again and build a story, on the other hand even simplest missions can turn into a giant clusterfucks if you dally with combat because I think your nemessis is drawn to it. Multiple times they would pop up even if they werent in the area. But such clusterfucks are fun?
Let me tell you two stories. I will not be refering the orks by theri names because I really can not remember their names, so I'll name them by their traits. Okay let's carry on.

My first real nemesis was an orc that got the credit for killing me when I tangled with some caradons. For some reason he got a lot of cool traits and nearly no weaknesses, or maybe he had some but lost them as he kept wining. His only weaknesses were that he was vunerable to combat finishers and could be scared by fire. The second wasn't really an option and the first? That is a weakness of nearly all orks so far encountered. Also he also had a bunch of annoying positive ones like he can summon more allies, he hits like a truck even though he is a bow guy, you can not jump over him and so on and on.
I ran into him accidentally in the north part of the map and he hit me once, took 80% of my health and left me alive. By this point I was pissed. So I wen't looking for me and found him in a stronghold. I knew he could summon more guys so I sort of tried clearing them around him but that doesn't really work in a stronghold and I got spotted. This meant I quickly got dogpiled on in the stronghold since he summoned like a batalion of duudes, poissoned me kicked me and than to add insult to injury when I was at my last legs he left me alive, and got more traits. Now I started to be sort of scared. I really didn't want this guy to gain even more powers from kicking my butt and so far my attempts to take me out were dismal failures. So I decided to avoid him like a plague and get some skills and abilities and health on me before trying again.
So I was doing one fo the activities, freeing slaves, and it was going fun, skulking around, killing occasional captain using his weakness, mostly by stealth. I was at the last slave location doing my thing shanking orks in silence, when I got spotted more orks ran in and I dove in fighting them. It was quite fun for about 20 seconds untill wham suddenly out of the ork mass the Archer dude appears and tells me "If you are this weak maybe I should finally put you out of misery" now nt only my life was in danger, and I could feed him more power but I could fail the activity. And my previous record was bad when it came to fighting him surrounded by other Orks. So I bravely tailed it out of there.
Once I lost them, I strted skillking back, and my bad luck is that my nemesis was the one torturing/taunting/guarding the slave, so now I had no choice but to fight him. But I decided no way I was going to figth him with all his friends around so I sneaked and shanked them all. In fact I only shot the last guy, some slaves decided to leg it and he took off in pursuit. Now it was my nemesis and me in a bush. I think I first tried shanking him from hiding. Did some damage but he survived. Than unlike other times I slammed him with that elven flury strike that unbalances them and than the wraith quickly strikes the target multiple times in quick sucesion. Excellent for quickly building combos. I backed him into a corner, and kept whailing on him untill he died. "Who is wak now motherfucker". While the boss battle was kind of anticlimactic, it was only that because he never was able to hit me, and at that moment I wanted to cut his head off and mount it on a nice pike next to one of my towers.

The second story happened last night. It was my first duel mission, where you fight a Orc Chieftan. This guy was trouble. Nearly no weakness apart from usual can be damaged by combat finishers and bunch of positives, basically all of them (inv to ranged, can not be jumped over, cna not be countered, has a shield, has fire weapon, can not be elf flurryed etc.). Killed his guard wit arrows and realised my flury tehnique will not work. I also couldn't build up my combo the normal way because he would hide behind his shield. Luckily he called the reinforcements and I managed to build my combo on his mooks and stab him good one time.
Than suddenly some bone white sword orc showed up (WhiteSword from now on), and I was like got to finish it quickly. I managet to hit the boss AGAIN and he was down to 40%. But than some white archer dude popped up also (WhiteBow from now on). At this point even with the boss at 40% I couldn't take him on and fight the other two at the same time AND a batallion of orks surounding us. I decided to hightail it out of there heal and try to sneakilly thin out the ranks.
While I was running the worst thing happened, I was running through some arch, ran into some straggler orcs quickly killed one and when I hit the other wierdly looking one when it turned out it's my NemessisArcher guy from the last story. And he was gloating about how I should have checked if he is dead. I wanted to idiot but game wouldn't let me. With him in front and chase behind me (oh and have I mentioned this was next to the SW stronghold?) furiosly attacked him. Flurry, execution, flurry execution. Once he dropped down RUN! Forget the rune RUN. Thankfully there was a big tower close and lots of walls which allowed me to easily break contact.
Whew. At this point if Talon wasn't dead his hearth would be bursting. Find some weeds and omnomnom on them. Now began the game of cat and mouse. I needed to thin their ranks a little and especially to kill those Captains because I can not fight the chief and his captains together.
I decided to kill the WhiteSword guy first. He would have been a relativelly easy to kill alone even without his vunerability to sneakattacks but he was moving with the other two and a literal platoon of orks (20+). So I took to the walls and for like 10 minutes I was stalking him trying to get a drop on him (aerial assasination). One time I almost managed to do it, but apparently at the last time the selection moved to another ork and I killed the one beside him. AND landed right in the middle of them. RUN! Next time I got him, but just as I was exfiltrating I ran straight into ExtreemePoissonGuy*. SHIT SHIT SHIT RUN RUN RUN. Managed to loose them.
Next up I decided it's WhiteBow's turn. He did not have invunerability to arrows, but that turned out to be non feasible. In the end I got him by repeatedly jumping on him from ledges. Hmm or maybe I scared him off with a carradon. I don't remember. It was a logn fight.
At this point I realised I can not kill them all and poissons guy and a platoon of orks they need thining and hit and running. Fortunatelly I spotted that there are carradon pens in the wals nearby. Got myself a caradon. Ran straight in, killed a couple, and scared witless the POisson, who then hightailed. ANd maybe here the Bow guy fled too. But my caradon died just when Poisson started running. Tried chasing him down, but he was fast and invunerable to arrows so I let him go. Escaped the chase and went back to brooding and planning.
I decidd to do couple of hit and run attacks with another carradon to drive the enemy numbers down to something manegable via couple of hit and runs. Run in slash couple of them run out before they can hurt the carradon too much. It worked. I was able to drive their numbers down to like 3-4 orks + the Chieftan. At this point the Chief had previosly healed back up to 100% but I think I managed to shank him once too during one of my attempts. I jumped off the caradon and we went in.
Carradon would occupy him from the front and I could strinke at his unprotected back. We got him down low. But at some point I was having problems climbing some rock, disaster struck. Chief killed the carradon it and regained the health! I think he probably got the trait of carradon hunder and that healed him.
So now I was fighting a healed chief and some of his mooks. It was quite hard a fight. I had to dodge his attacks (uncounterable+flame weapon) get the combo up on his mooks and than hit him with execution moves. Nothing elese worked on him. But in the end I bested him.
But as I ws winding down by killing the remaing orks left from the fight (and more were streaming in for some reason in ones or twos so there allways was 4-5), the poisson guy returned. FUUUUCK. And I think another one, maybe WhiteBow? What is this orc captain convention? This fight wen't a lot better than prevoius ones. Killed them all, and at the end I was feeling like a rock star. And I didn't want for something like this EVER to happen again.

* he had traits hits like a train, uncounterable, can not be jumped over, extreemly powerfull poissons, can detect you when you are hiding but was scared of caradons I think
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Middle-Earth: Shadows of Mordor

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Wed Oct 15, 2014 12:07 am

Your nemesiss(nemesi?)pop up like that probably because one of the positive traits of some orcs is "can pop up anywhere unexpectedly".They either had it from the start,or gained them through battle.You should never allow an orc with that trait to live,because its very dangerous to you.The first time an orc with it jumped me while I was fighting a tough chief,and killed me,I immediately started hunting down everyone that had that trait.

I practically never trigger the nemesis system since I dont allow any of the commanders to gain any power.Which may be bad,because then I cant get the legendaries.But,I dont need to at this point,since Ive built up weapons in such a way that Im practically invincible.If I get to low health,I have 3 options to pick from(which I usually chain together anyway):
1)Elven furry someone to death(I got the ability where elven furry explodes their head in the end).This gives me back some health AND scares a bunch of orcs,effectively bringing me back into the game while clearing the crowd.Plus,it builds up my combo,triggering this:
2)Combat finish someone which also brings me some health,plus gives me back some focus,which can be used to trigger this:
3)Enter focus mode and during the slow down headshot 2 or 3 orcs,which brings me some health.

If 1 is not available,I just jump over orcs until I get out of the main bunch,and try to build up my combo by smashing the much thinner ranks on the rim of the mob,then do 2+3,or 3+2+3.You should almost never find yourself in the middle of a bunch of orcs,but always try to keep them all just on one side from you.

Not to mention that Ive almost maxed out tier 3 abilities without leaving the first area.How?Well it goes like this:
I mark the main mission,which is across the map,but because I like walking I run towards it.Then I spot a patrol of orcs,and naturally I slaughter them(I mean you cant resist slaughtering a patrol of orcs,its quick and satisfying),then I continue to run towards the main mission.But now,I spot a slaver,so naturally I kill him and free the slaves.But now,a nearby archer has spotted me and shoots at me,so I go to kill him.But while I run towards him,an orc commander pops up,so I slaughter him as well(because why shouldnt I?).Now Im a bit off track,and I see that a side quest is practically next to me,so I do that one,because its practically next to me,why should I skip it.And now Im back where Ive started,gained a bunch of xp,p and m,and starting the run towards the main mission again.I mean,I could just teleport there,but this is just to much fun to not do.Its a vicious cycle.
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Ringwraith

Re: Middle-Earth: Shadows of Mordor

Postby Ringwraith » Wed Oct 15, 2014 1:18 am

It's nemeses by the way. In case anyone was wondering.
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Sudanna

Re: Middle-Earth: Shadows of Mordor

Postby Sudanna » Wed Oct 15, 2014 2:23 am

I think I might be too good at this game for it to be really good. I haven't been in anything resembling a dangerous situation since my first hour or so of playing, when I hadn't learned the mechanics yet. So I haven't had an orc kill me unless I wanted it to, so the nemesis system is only of, like, mild interest in that I get to choose which captains are worthy of serving me based on how cool they look and their titles, and which captains must die based on their lack of looking cool or having a cool name.

Really, though, just use slow-motion to headshot any ranged dudes and counter/combat execute your way to victory. And it's always very easy to just run away at thirty miles an hour with elven swiftness, or jump on a roof/up a cliff and hide in a bush/behind a wall to become stealthed and reengage on your terms. Almost any orc captain is pathetically helpless if you stun-lock them, and it's not that big of a deal to go fetch a caragor for the ones with combat master.

I dunno.
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4th Dimension

Re: Middle-Earth: Shadows of Mordor

Postby 4th Dimension » Wed Oct 15, 2014 6:38 am

Daemian Lucifer wrote:Your nemesiss(nemesi?)pop up like that probably because one of the positive traits of some orcs is "can pop up anywhere unexpectedly".They either had it from the start,or gained them through battle.You should never allow an orc with that trait to live,because its very dangerous to you.The first time an orc with it jumped me while I was fighting a tough chief,and killed me,I immediately started hunting down everyone that had that trait.

I practically never trigger the nemesis system since I dont allow any of the commanders to gain any power.Which may be bad,because then I cant get the legendaries.But,I dont need to at this point,since Ive built up weapons in such a way that Im practically invincible.If I get to low health,I have 3 options to pick from(which I usually chain together anyway):
1)Elven furry someone to death(I got the ability where elven furry explodes their head in the end).This gives me back some health AND scares a bunch of orcs,effectively bringing me back into the game while clearing the crowd.Plus,it builds up my combo,triggering this:
2)Combat finish someone which also brings me some health,plus gives me back some focus,which can be used to trigger this:
3)Enter focus mode and during the slow down headshot 2 or 3 orcs,which brings me some health.

If 1 is not available,I just jump over orcs until I get out of the main bunch,and try to build up my combo by smashing the much thinner ranks on the rim of the mob,then do 2+3,or 3+2+3.You should almost never find yourself in the middle of a bunch of orcs,but always try to keep them all just on one side from you.

Not to mention that Ive almost maxed out tier 3 abilities without leaving the first area.How?Well it goes like this:
I mark the main mission,which is across the map,but because I like walking I run towards it.Then I spot a patrol of orcs,and naturally I slaughter them(I mean you cant resist slaughtering a patrol of orcs,its quick and satisfying),then I continue to run towards the main mission.But now,I spot a slaver,so naturally I kill him and free the slaves.But now,a nearby archer has spotted me and shoots at me,so I go to kill him.But while I run towards him,an orc commander pops up,so I slaughter him as well(because why shouldnt I?).Now Im a bit off track,and I see that a side quest is practically next to me,so I do that one,because its practically next to me,why should I skip it.And now Im back where Ive started,gained a bunch of xp,p and m,and starting the run towards the main mission again.I mean,I could just teleport there,but this is just to much fun to not do.Its a vicious cycle.


I'm quite certain none of them had that trait. On the other hand 1 or two did have the perk of being able to summon or call in reinforcements, so maybe that applies to other captains. Since I'm still at tier 2 and don't have access to a wide range of runes, I still am unable to set up a good combination of them and abilities. I mostly have the useless kind like gain arrows on kill. Does Eleven Flurry always explode orc heads? Because I do have some runes that are triggered by that. But the only time something similar to that happens is when I execute an orc and I can cut off their head. Same thing happens to me on my way to quests, but with the added bonus of me always liking to clean the map before tackling main missions, means I only completed that mission with the cowardly orc story mission by now.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Middle-Earth: Shadows of Mordor

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Wed Oct 15, 2014 7:10 am

4th Dimension wrote:I mostly have the useless kind like gain arrows on kill.


Thats not useless at all.Combine those with focus gain,and you can pause and kill 3+ orcs every once in a while.Having time slow down in the midst of a combat is great.Heck,if you focus on arrow gain you wont even have to charge your shots,allowing you to shoot all your arrows in a single focus burst.

4th Dimension wrote:Does Eleven Flurry always explode orc heads?


Its a skill.Tier 2 I think.Every flurry you do until the end(8 or 9 hits)ends with an exploded head.I forget though if its tied to a quest skill or not.It is useful to do all the gollum missions though,cause that gives you some nice wraith powers(like the mass stun).
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4th Dimension

Re: Middle-Earth: Shadows of Mordor

Postby 4th Dimension » Wed Oct 15, 2014 10:25 am

Yes I agree it would be usefull, but my focus is pathetic. I can fire like 3 arrows. Also how do you regain it, focus I mean. I never figured out the mechanic. Do you need to do damage? Or something, since it's not time based.
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Sudanna

Re: Middle-Earth: Shadows of Mordor

Postby Sudanna » Wed Oct 15, 2014 11:10 am

Focus regenerates very quickly after a long delay.
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Thomas

Re: Middle-Earth: Shadows of Mordor

Postby Thomas » Wed Oct 15, 2014 12:04 pm

It's like how health regenerates in most games. I've ended up with a rune that regains focus on head shots which, combined with a rune that I think can regain arrows on headshots? is pretty cool. But the bow is my least favourite weapon.

I just got my dagger reforged which is completely gutting. I would have refused to do the sidequests if I knew that would happen. I figured having the broken sword of your family was a really cool weapon to have, and now I've just got some bland dagger. I don't even know what that does. I assume reforging your bow or sword increases the power of those attacks but your dagger is already an insta kill.

And I killed an enemy who was immune to melee attacks, melee finishers, stealth attacks and ranged attacks which was pretty fun.

The special ability upgrades are as overpowered as they sound. Yes, they let you use unlimited drains, so now if I'm ever in a deadly battle with <8 orcs I can kill them all within twenty seconds, and if I'm in a battle with more then I can completely restore my health whilst killing them. It's super useful when fighting guls because I don't know how to avoid damage against them, and guls recharge your ability in like 10 seconds. When I unlock the insta stealth kills super power I'm going to try to complete the last sword challenge on the first map, which is way harder than any of the other challenges
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Sudanna

Re: Middle-Earth: Shadows of Mordor

Postby Sudanna » Wed Oct 15, 2014 1:21 pm

It's the same dagger as you had earlier. It's even got the same broken shape, if you look closely. Celebrimbor -reforges- it into a fancier one, is all. I haven't noticed it actually doing anything. :p
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Thomas

Re: Middle-Earth: Shadows of Mordor

Postby Thomas » Wed Oct 15, 2014 2:08 pm

I noticed it had the same broken shape but I assumed that was because they didn't want to screw up the ordinary dagger animations :P I guess that was kind of silly of me. But reforging it still kills the fun, it stops looking like you're literally shanking orcs with the broken sword stub from when they attacked your family
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Sudanna

Re: Middle-Earth: Shadows of Mordor

Postby Sudanna » Wed Oct 15, 2014 2:37 pm

. . . Personally, I thought that was reeeeally dumb-looking. The end of a broken sword is not sharp. Like, at all. You were stabbing orcs with a ruler, basically.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Middle-Earth: Shadows of Mordor

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Wed Oct 15, 2014 2:44 pm

Nalyd wrote:. . . Personally, I thought that was reeeeally dumb-looking. The end of a broken sword is not sharp. Like, at all. You were stabbing orcs with a ruler, basically.


True,but then some of your moves involve a wraith popping out of your body kicking orc ass,so having a broken sword used as a dagger doesnt require much of a suspension of disbelief.Especially since its a named broken sword.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Middle-Earth: Shadows of Mordor

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Wed Oct 15, 2014 3:19 pm

Boy do these orcs have some stupid names.I just fought douche,er I mean dûsh bone-licker.I wonder how hilarious the voice actor found saying all of those.

Oh,and douche had the humiliator perk.
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Thomas

Re: Middle-Earth: Shadows of Mordor

Postby Thomas » Wed Oct 15, 2014 4:22 pm

I love how they use Wraith mode to explain away animation errors. Starting jumping on a target whose just walked underneath something solid? Turn into wraith mode and sink through the floor. Initiated a stealth kill with a target whose just slightly too far away? Your ghost extends a little bit forward and kills him instead. It's a really neat way of doing things

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