Game pet peeves

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Andrew

Re: Game pet peeves

Post by Andrew » Thu Sep 22, 2016 1:19 am

Supahewok wrote:It's annoying since combat is proving to be no chump, even on Normal. The AI is decent, the encounters are fairly smart, and I'm usually outnumbered significantly.
Being outnumbered is a hallmark of D:OS! But I found that usually my individual characters were worth 2 or 3 of the enemy AI.

But yeah, skilling up in D:OS is a bit of a learned skill itself as you really should be spending each point specifically, instead of trying to go for a wide range of stuff. From what I remember there is no such thing as a Jack of all Trades character in D:OS. If you don't focus on 3-4 specific skills then you're probably not going to max anything out (which may or may not be a good thing based on how you play).

This is somewhat negated though by the fact that your max party size is 4 (and you can recruit others too who wait around for you to take them with you). So while you can't really diversify your individual characters, you can diversify your party with whatever you need for a specific encounter.
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Supahewok

Re: Game pet peeves

Post by Supahewok » Thu Sep 22, 2016 3:10 am

Andrew wrote:
Supahewok wrote:It's annoying since combat is proving to be no chump, even on Normal. The AI is decent, the encounters are fairly smart, and I'm usually outnumbered significantly.
Being outnumbered is a hallmark of D:OS! But I found that usually my individual characters were worth 2 or 3 of the enemy AI.

But yeah, skilling up in D:OS is a bit of a learned skill itself as you really should be spending each point specifically, instead of trying to go for a wide range of stuff. From what I remember there is no such thing as a Jack of all Trades character in D:OS. If you don't focus on 3-4 specific skills then you're probably not going to max anything out (which may or may not be a good thing based on how you play).

This is somewhat negated though by the fact that your max party size is 4 (and you can recruit others too who wait around for you to take them with you). So while you can't really diversify your individual characters, you can diversify your party with whatever you need for a specific encounter.
After doing some wiki looking to figure out max skill levels and skill book merchants (because it is not at all obvious which characters, several of which aren't merchants, will sell which skill books), I've gotten the hang of things. I'd heard that the game presented opportunities for status and environmental effects interacting with spells, but I'd figured that that was only necessary on harder difficulties, like most games. When I figured out that the game expected me to use a wide range of spells, and use most of them in every single combat, things straightened right out. Although I still have to cheese boss fights to an extent.

Kinda regretting setting one of my characters to Lone Wolf, I think a fourth body to spread enemy attacks among would have been better.
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Humanoid

Re: Game pet peeves

Post by Humanoid » Thu Sep 22, 2016 3:12 am

I played D:OS in co-op, both characters taking the Lone Wolf perk so that each player only controlled one character. It was tough going at first because it was so easy for enemies to disable one character, effectively halving our power, such that we considered starting over without Lone Wolf. We got through by heavy use of summoning spells, and gradually the difficulty curve flattened out.

With Lone Wolf, there were plenty enough points to make good multi-classish characters. Didn't feel like I was compromising much by maxing out archery as well as two schools of magic.
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Andrew

Re: Game pet peeves

Post by Andrew » Thu Sep 22, 2016 3:15 am

I was just going to say ask Humanoid about Lone Wolf characters but I've been beaten to the punch!!

When I first played D:OS I also didn't understand the wide variety of environmental effects you had at your disposal. For instance, I never knew that you could cast a rain spell and save the burning ship that you encounter just as you enter town. It was only my 3rd playthrough that I actually saved them. The previous 2 the ship burnt to a crisp and I never understood why the townspeople blamed me!!

And there's this one boss, I think on around Cyseal, who switches back and forth between elements so yeah, you really do need a wide array of spells at your disposal.
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Supahewok

Re: Game pet peeves

Post by Supahewok » Thu Sep 22, 2016 3:19 am

I was originally playing through D:OS in co-op, but unfortunately my partner and I could only play a session once every few weeks and eventually he couldn't make the time at all, so now I'm going through on my own. We did set both characters to Lone Wolf at his suggestion, but he had set us up crazy builds. Something about his character being a tank healed when standing in blood, my character being ranged DPS with an attack that caused bleeding, and whenever he started taking hits I'd make his character bleed, and some shit would happen with the numbers and that healing would roll over into the thousands on level 2 characters. So that was some extraordinary circumstances.
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Humanoid

Re: Game pet peeves

Post by Humanoid » Thu Sep 22, 2016 3:24 am

Yes, D:OS is anything but balanced, though I played the original release and not the Enhanced Edition which may have improved things. So if you see a weapon, ability or spell that looks like it sucks, don't search for hidden meaning behind it, it probably just sucks.
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bitterpark

Re: Game pet peeves

Post by bitterpark » Thu Sep 22, 2016 12:24 pm

The character system in DOS is weird. First the game makes it look like it's one of those modern pick-whatever-you-like systems where you can roll with any combination of skills, which caused me to make the mistake of rolling a firemage/armored tank hybrid. There's nothing stopping you from doing that at character creation, no, you just find out later that armor has increasing strength requirements, and spells have increasing intelligence requirements, and more to the point, as a mage you're expected to be wearing robes, cause robes have Int requirements and also mage-related bonuses. You basically have to pick one stat cause you won't be able to keep up with both.

So you can multiclass, but in reality you'd better focus on Strength skills, Int skills or Agility skills.

Okay, fine, but at least you can mix and match magic schools at will, right? Well, fire and earth can combo well, and so do air and water. But fire/air and water/earth don't, and actually often get in the way of each-other's effects, not to mention fire/water. So if you decide to roll fire/air, you're kind of shooting yourself in the foot from the get-go.

Hardly a new problem for RPG games, but DOS is so reliant on those combos that it feels a lot worse to miss out on them.
Ninety-Three

Re: Game pet peeves

Post by Ninety-Three » Thu Sep 22, 2016 12:38 pm

D:OS is a great game for min-maxing, but it will require like ten hours worth of restarts in order to learn all the systems and make all the mistakes, because it is not interested in explaining itself. For instance, you can productively multiclass mage, but only if you splash mage for things that don't scale to your casting stat, like summons, buffs, and environmental control. Or, because the cost of skills drastically increases at higher levels, you get way more options by making your mage air 5/water 4/fire 1/earth 2 than going air 5/fire 5 and calling it a day.

If you're interested in being optimal but not in ten hours of learn-by-restarting, let me know and I can lay out a bunch of advice.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Game pet peeves

Post by Daemian Lucifer » Thu Sep 22, 2016 1:05 pm

bitterpark wrote:The character system in DOS is weird. First the game makes it look like it's one of those modern pick-whatever-you-like systems
Personally,I think having to specialize is better than being able to use whatever and win with ease.BUT,I think that one of the most important things for every rpg is the ability to respec whenever you want(with a cost of some resource,of course).This is why,no matter how tedious and boring it could get,kingdoms of amalur is one of the best rpgs Ive ever played.
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bitterpark

Re: Game pet peeves

Post by bitterpark » Thu Sep 22, 2016 1:10 pm

Ninety-Three wrote:If you're interested in being optimal but not in ten hours of learn-by-restarting, let me know and I can lay out a bunch of advice.
Thanks, but I'm more of an as-the-crow-flies kinda guy, and I still didn't find the game all that hard, even with my halfassed build. I had the difficulty set to max and thought it was just hard enough for my tastes, maybe I'd even go a bit higher.

Maybe that was because I maxed out Lore early on, so I could always see the exact resistance values of all enemies and hit them where it hurts. After that, I barely ever lost a fight.

The real difficulty is in finding the time to play the damn game. That's my real pet peeve: RPGs are so damn long, you can't really play them anymore when you're out of college. Man, remember when CRPGs were dead? I was there with everyone else, shouting from the rooftops about how we need more. And now we have Wasteland 2, Pillars, DOS, Shadowrun, Age of Decadence, the upcoming Torment... and no time to play any of them. Funny, isn't it.

I mean, I guess it's technically possible to play a game like this for a couple hours once per week, but... it just doesn't feel right. To me, when I load a save a week later in an RPG, it may as well be from someone else's game. It takes an hour just to remember which quests I was doing, which skills I was going to try out and to sort out the inventory.
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Kelerak

Re: Game pet peeves

Post by Kelerak » Thu Sep 22, 2016 4:08 pm

I have that same thing going on with Shadowrun: Dragonfall. Since my playstyle is usually constantly jumping from one game to another, I ended up dropping Dragonfall since it's been a couple months since I last played and don't even remember what I was doing. Oh well.
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bitterpark

Re: Game pet peeves

Post by bitterpark » Thu Sep 22, 2016 5:15 pm

Kelerak wrote:I have that same thing going on with Shadowrun: Dragonfall. Since my playstyle is usually constantly jumping from one game to another, I ended up dropping Dragonfall since it's been a couple months since I last played and don't even remember what I was doing. Oh well.
Dragonfall is a bit easier to come back to, at least, since it's cleanly broken up into largely self-contained missions, and leveling and inventory management are streamlined so it doesn't take too too long to readjust, though it still sucks.

Also, I kinda had to force myself to finish Dragonfall back when I played it. I love the game, and I liked the ending, but I think a lot of the content between the part where you deliver the payment and the final level could have been trimmed without making the game too slim.

I think RPGs in general tend to have more content than is really optimal, possibly because people just can't take an RPG game seriously if it's shorter than 20 hours. I guess it wouldn't feel like a suitably "epic" adventure if it's just 6 hours, and there wouldn't be enough room for a deep character progression system, which is an RPG staple. But still, I'd rather have 10 hours of killer than 20 hours of filler, and shorter campaign would also improve replay value, which is the other staple of good RPGs.
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Supahewok

Re: Game pet peeves

Post by Supahewok » Thu Sep 22, 2016 5:46 pm

God damn, I'm level 8 and just figured out that the loot highlight key is Left Alt. Now I have to retrace every step I've made in the whole game because every single encounter had items drop under bodies or in hard to see places and I missed them (seriously, all but one of the encounters I've revisisted have had loot I've missed, not to mention keys lying around that unlocked things I wasted lockpicks on), and all the herbs and mushrooms that are thought were rare, turns out I just walked past them. I'm starting to actually have a decent supply of healing potions.

Geez, silly me, for not realizing that the "Show World Tooltips" button listed in the controls menu was what highlighted loot when I went to look it up at the beginning of the fucking game.
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Andrew

Re: Game pet peeves

Post by Andrew » Fri Sep 23, 2016 12:54 am

Supahewok wrote:God damn, I'm level 8 and just figured out that the loot highlight key is Left Alt. Now I have to retrace every step I've made in the whole game because every single encounter had items drop under bodies or in hard to see places and I missed them (seriously, all but one of the encounters I've revisisted have had loot I've missed, not to mention keys lying around that unlocked things I wasted lockpicks on), and all the herbs and mushrooms that are thought were rare, turns out I just walked past them. I'm starting to actually have a decent supply of healing potions.

Geez, silly me, for not realizing that the "Show World Tooltips" button listed in the controls menu was what highlighted loot when I went to look it up at the beginning of the fucking game.
Hahahahaha.

Errmm.. sorry.. hahaha.

I could be mistaken as it's been a long time since I played D:OS, but wasn't that one of the tooltips you receive when you're going through the tutorial section of the game?

If not, then yes, that's poor because it's a pretty useful function, as you've obviously realised!!
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Supahewok

Re: Game pet peeves

Post by Supahewok » Fri Sep 23, 2016 12:59 am

Andrew wrote:
Supahewok wrote:God damn, I'm level 8 and just figured out that the loot highlight key is Left Alt. Now I have to retrace every step I've made in the whole game because every single encounter had items drop under bodies or in hard to see places and I missed them (seriously, all but one of the encounters I've revisisted have had loot I've missed, not to mention keys lying around that unlocked things I wasted lockpicks on), and all the herbs and mushrooms that are thought were rare, turns out I just walked past them. I'm starting to actually have a decent supply of healing potions.

Geez, silly me, for not realizing that the "Show World Tooltips" button listed in the controls menu was what highlighted loot when I went to look it up at the beginning of the fucking game.
Hahahahaha.

Errmm.. sorry.. hahaha.

I could be mistaken as it's been a long time since I played D:OS, but wasn't that one of the tooltips you receive when you're going through the tutorial section of the game?

If not, then yes, that's poor because it's a pretty useful function, as you've obviously realised!!
If it was, then I forgot it in the 2 or 3 months I was away from it during the summer.
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Andrew

Re: Game pet peeves

Post by Andrew » Fri Sep 23, 2016 1:05 am

Supahewok wrote:
Andrew wrote:
Supahewok wrote:God damn, I'm level 8 and just figured out that the loot highlight key is Left Alt. Now I have to retrace every step I've made in the whole game because every single encounter had items drop under bodies or in hard to see places and I missed them (seriously, all but one of the encounters I've revisisted have had loot I've missed, not to mention keys lying around that unlocked things I wasted lockpicks on), and all the herbs and mushrooms that are thought were rare, turns out I just walked past them. I'm starting to actually have a decent supply of healing potions.

Geez, silly me, for not realizing that the "Show World Tooltips" button listed in the controls menu was what highlighted loot when I went to look it up at the beginning of the fucking game.
Hahahahaha.

Errmm.. sorry.. hahaha.

I could be mistaken as it's been a long time since I played D:OS, but wasn't that one of the tooltips you receive when you're going through the tutorial section of the game?

If not, then yes, that's poor because it's a pretty useful function, as you've obviously realised!!
If it was, then I forgot it in the 2 or 3 months I was away from it during the summer.
To be fair, I only remember because I just started playing early access for D:OS 2 a few days ago and that exact tooltip popped up not 3 minutes into the game.

If it weren't for that I probably wouldn't have remembered either.
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4th Dimension

Re: Game pet peeves

Post by 4th Dimension » Fri Sep 23, 2016 5:29 am

Isn't Left Alt like a common binding for a key to highlight all intractable objects?
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Andrew

Re: Game pet peeves

Post by Andrew » Fri Sep 23, 2016 5:31 am

Yes.

That's what he just figured out. =D
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Supahewok

Re: Game pet peeves

Post by Supahewok » Fri Sep 23, 2016 5:40 am

I'm used to Tab, actually. Pretty sure that's what it was in BG 1&2, and it's what I've stuck to since.
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Humanoid

Re: Game pet peeves

Post by Humanoid » Fri Sep 23, 2016 5:50 am

IWD2 changed it to Alt, so it wasn't consistent even amongst the Infinity Engine games. Or maybe it's a D&D 3E rule? :P

(I do think Alt tends to make more sense because it's a modifier key whereas Tab isn't)
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Ringwraith

Re: Game pet peeves

Post by Ringwraith » Fri Sep 23, 2016 9:14 am

I think that was the the last Infinity Engine game, so something changed to make them switch.
Sometimes Tab isn't used as it's something else, or just a carried-over habit.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Game pet peeves

Post by Daemian Lucifer » Fri Sep 23, 2016 10:33 am

The solution is to hit both alt and tab at the same time.You will definitely hit the correct button that way.
Ninety-Three

Re: Game pet peeves

Post by Ninety-Three » Fri Sep 23, 2016 1:48 pm

I have the most minor of pet peeves. You know the massive wave of digital CCGs that Hearthstone's success kicked off, the one where you open tiny packs of cards that have to be broken down into insultingly small amount of crafting components to make the cards you really want? The rarity scheme in seemingly all of those games is as follows "Common, Rare, [generically impressive word], [generically impressive word]", and it drives me up the walls. First of all, the second of four or more rarity slots should never be called rare, those are uncommons. This is like a coffee shop where the medium is called "Grande". Secondly, no human being on the planet can intuit whether "Epic" is rarer than "Mythic", or "Supreme" better than "Legendary". The fact that almost every game does this makes me wonder if it's intentionally confusing, whether a key part of the Hearthstone money-making formula is muddying the waters between tier 3 and tier 4 cards.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Game pet peeves

Post by Daemian Lucifer » Fri Sep 23, 2016 1:53 pm

The names are meaningless though.Ever since diablo introduced standard color coding,the names associated with those colors are just fluff.
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Wide And Nerdy

Re: Game pet peeves

Post by Wide And Nerdy » Fri Sep 23, 2016 2:24 pm

I hate the descriptors in general. Its as lazy as pallette swapping. I'd rather have fewer things that feel special than a Toad, a Demon Toad, an Alpha Toad, an Alpha Demon Toad, an Albino Epic Toad, A Puppy, and An Albino Alpha Demon Puppy. I think its the mix and match nature thats the worst.

3rd edition DnD had this and I wonder if thats where it came from. But while you could apply the "Alpha Brute" template to an Owlbear, a smart DM wouldn't say "you see an Alpha Brute Owlbear" they'd say something like "you see what looks like an Owlbear but its hulking and ponderous, it immediately adopts an aggressive posture unlike any Owlbear you've seen before." And more importantly, you didn't then start encountering these hulking monstrous Owlbears all the time while normal Owlbears mysteriously vanished.

Or if you did, it would be a plot point. What is causing these Owlbears to mutate into this larger more fearsome type of beast? How is it impacting hunting in the local village? Is the settlement going to have to relocate or fortify?
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