Persona 5 - THE WAIT IS FINALLY OVER

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Ringwraith

Re: Persona 5 - THE WAIT IS FINALLY OVER

Postby Ringwraith » Sat Apr 15, 2017 12:06 pm

Don't forget your status ailments!
They're Real Dang Good.
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Trix2000
Location: California

Re: Persona 5 - THE WAIT IS FINALLY OVER

Postby Trix2000 » Sat Apr 15, 2017 6:22 pm

Ringwraith wrote:Don't forget your status ailments!
They're Real Dang Good.

Yusuke's Mind Slice has been particularly amazing for this, since confusion COMPLETELY shuts down pretty much every enemy I've applied it to. Also had some success with sleep early on against the groups of tough physical enemies.

I should still be doing more, maybe, but I tend to prefer going for the AOA as much as possible instead.

Fifth dungeon is a surprising pain to get through, as it seems like almost everything is in some way resistant or immune to physical attacks. This would be easier to handle if the weaknesses weren't all sorts of inconvenient too, so even with two 7 SP accessories it's been hard to keep the tank up. But I'm not too worried, since I have a fair bit of curry and coffee stockpiled (Coffee? I LOVE coffee!). Leveling Temperance is amazingly useful.

On the plus side, it's shaken me out of my normal party lineup to actually use my backup members. I really like that its so much more convenient to do so, since they've mostly kept pace on levels and can be swapped in any time out of combat (or even IN combat). One thing that always bothered me in the prior games was how I felt like I had to bench half the characters that joined because I couldn't bring them all along, and leveling them to match required a lot of grinding I just didn't want to bother with.
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Ringwraith

Re: Persona 5 - THE WAIT IS FINALLY OVER

Postby Ringwraith » Sun Apr 16, 2017 2:00 am

The scaled experience helped with backup members in previous games, but being able to switch them freely whenever outside of combat is very nice (also finally some sort of explanation for why you just don't bring everyone in).
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Trix2000
Location: California

Re: Persona 5 - THE WAIT IS FINALLY OVER

Postby Trix2000 » Mon Apr 17, 2017 4:29 pm

Finished the fifth dungeon - difficulty taped off a bit later on (Decabrias are a joke with physical weakness) and still managed it in one shot - though at this point that feels given since I'm no longer running out.

I'd say more but it's gotten into SUPER spoiler territory. I will say things are really starting to come together, and I'm on the edge of my seat wanting to know more. It's interesting how much is actually going as I predicted, yet still lacking in crucial details that I cannot parse yet. The writing does not disappoint.

Though as a side note, I feel like Haru is a bit underdeveloped, at least with her introduction. I do like her character and design (the "lady desparado" look is pretty sweet, and has an AXE and GRENADE LAUNCHER), but she comes in fairly quickly and suddenly without much preamble save a few side appearances beforehand. It was to a point where I suspected she was actually one of our enemies trying to get in with us, even when she joined the party and it was clear they weren't going to budget the resources to make all her battle stuff for that to happen. I was convinced something was really up, but I wasn't entirely prepared for what actually WAS up.

Akechi was a nice non-surprise, though after Haru I didn't expect him to be a party member - it being November now and not a ton of game remaining. Still, we HAVE been lacking in a light/dark member, and he fits the bill... though getting a LOT of Naoto parallels (not nearly enough to spoil things, but still). He will always be Pleasant Boy to me, though.
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Ringwraith

Re: Persona 5 - THE WAIT IS FINALLY OVER

Postby Ringwraith » Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:05 pm

Well, there are two more elements now so there's a total of eight on top of Gun supplementing Physical.
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Trix2000
Location: California

Re: Persona 5 - THE WAIT IS FINALLY OVER

Postby Trix2000 » Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:46 pm

I still find it entertaining that 'Nuke' is now an element.

I'm not sure why they didn't just call 'gun' piercing, though. They've HAD piercing damage before, and guns are not the only source of that damage.
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Thomas

Re: Persona 5 - THE WAIT IS FINALLY OVER

Postby Thomas » Mon Apr 17, 2017 10:03 pm

Makoto, so cool she feels like she should be the real protagonist of the game. Seriously who even is this Joker guy? He doesn't even have a motorbike.
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Ringwraith

Re: Persona 5 - THE WAIT IS FINALLY OVER

Postby Ringwraith » Mon Apr 17, 2017 10:15 pm

Trix2000 wrote:I still find it entertaining that 'Nuke' is now an element.

I'm not sure why they didn't just call 'gun' piercing, though. They've HAD piercing damage before, and guns are not the only source of that damage.

SMT's been this way for a long time.
Also because sometimes the "guns" are bazookas.
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The Rocketeer

Re: Persona 5 - THE WAIT IS FINALLY OVER

Postby The Rocketeer » Mon Apr 17, 2017 10:21 pm

Wasn't 'Nuke' always an element? I remember in Persona 3, there were some rare endgame spells with the the radiation trefoil as their elemental identifier. Although, I took it that that wasn't so much an element as it was a lack of one, since it had no related weaknesses/resistances.
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Trix2000
Location: California

Re: Persona 5 - THE WAIT IS FINALLY OVER

Postby Trix2000 » Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:11 pm

They have used the nuke symbol for Almighty attacks (like Megido) in 3 and 4 (and Q?), but that is not the same thing as the new nuke damage. Almighty damage is independent of all main damage types, and generally cannot be resisted (or be a weakness). All-Out-Attacks are the most common form of this damage, which is part of why they are so strong.

Almighty still seems to be in P5 in much the same form (at least, AOAs are pretty much the same and I think the Megido line still exists). I think party member followup attacks are also Almighty, but I haven't checked. It's never been listed on the persona page as a damage type, though I'll admit when I saw the nuke symbol on there in P5 I assumed it just meant Almighty up until I got my first nuclear attack.

So no, 'Nuke' was never an actual element before, but its symbol was confusingly used in 3 and 4 for something else.


Thomas wrote:Makoto, so cool she feels like she should be the real protagonist of the game. Seriously who even is this Joker guy? He doesn't even have a motorbike.

IT GETS BETTER.

...Well, okay, maybe not better, but it's not the ONLY cool Persona, that's for sure. I'll admit that I think Makoto's might be my favorite design decision, though. It's so perfect. Also holy crap she is smart. She keeps making deductions about the plot at the same time or earlier than I do, and I've been really on the mark with some of this stuff!

Though while I'm considering that, I really love how each one of them is a different form of 'rogue' in terms of their appearance in-battle. The ways in which this game really sells the styles and themes are amazing.


Ringwraith wrote:Also because sometimes the "guns" are bazookas.
...Wait, hold on, whose is this? I know Hanu has a grenade launcher, but I don't recall seeing an actual bazooka yet. Did I miss something?

I guess it does make a little more sense in that context, but I don't know if 'gun' is any more apt than 'piercing' for an explosive weapon.
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Ringwraith

Re: Persona 5 - THE WAIT IS FINALLY OVER

Postby Ringwraith » Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:37 pm

In SMT games, that is.
In IV, you can just buy a bazooka from a shop, and it's still "gun" element, as that's very different from your melee command (which can be anything from swords to spears).

Nuclear hasn't been an element by itself for a long time. It's existed in some of the older SMT games though. Persona 3/4 used a radiation symbol for almighty-type spells, but that's obviously changed now Nuclear is using it.
Almighty, i.e. sitting outside the usual weaknesses/resistances, is indeed what All-Out Attacks and follow-ups are.
All-Out Attacks tend to use your weapon strength for damage calculation by the way, (as they're technically Physical Almighty), making them a bit of an oddity.
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Trix2000
Location: California

Re: Persona 5 - THE WAIT IS FINALLY OVER

Postby Trix2000 » Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:50 pm

Ringwraith wrote:In SMT games, that is.
In IV, you can just buy a bazooka from a shop, and it's still "gun" element, as that's very different from your melee command (which can be anything from swords to spears).
Oh, right, I need to remember that Persona is technically the offshoot-series. It doesn't help I never actually got into the other SMT games, despite being sorely tempted.

Nuclear hasn't been an element by itself for a long time. It's existed in some of the older SMT games though. Persona 3/4 used a radiation symbol for almighty-type spells, but that's obviously changed now Nuclear is using it.
Almighty, i.e. sitting outside the usual weaknesses/resistances, is indeed what All-Out Attacks and follow-ups are.
All-Out Attacks tend to use your weapon strength for damage calculation by the way, (as they're technically Physical Almighty), making them a bit of an oddity.
Part of why weapon upgrades are ultimately worth it, I think... that and allowing for more options to take down weaker groups with only melee to save SP. Some people, at least in prior games, would say that there's no need to bother (since physical skills or magic don't care about your weapons, only persona stats), but AOA damage actually starts to be important against the tougher enemies (Those damn elephant things in the fifth dungeon got lucky KOs on my protag TWICE. I was so happy when I could finally bring them down in ambush.).

Semi-related, I really wish gun ammo wasn't so limited. Sure, I'm finally getting some measures to address this, but I almost never feel justified in using gun attacks for anything but knocking down targets weak to them (and only one shot each). Or maybe they just needed to do more damage so they become an interesting option to consider ('free' high damage attack, but only so many clips).
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Ringwraith

Re: Persona 5 - THE WAIT IS FINALLY OVER

Postby Ringwraith » Tue Apr 18, 2017 1:01 am

If you have some critical boosting then get someone to fire away on something that lacks weaknesses, it gives you multiple chances for that knockdown.
Also, some rarer firearms have status ailment chances attached.
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Trix2000
Location: California

Re: Persona 5 - THE WAIT IS FINALLY OVER

Postby Trix2000 » Tue Apr 18, 2017 3:37 am

Ringwraith wrote:If you have some critical boosting then get someone to fire away on something that lacks weaknesses, it gives you multiple chances for that knockdown.
Also, some rarer firearms have status ailment chances attached.
That seems rarely practical, given it's still pretty RNG and you can only do it a couple times per character period (and some don't have large clips). Basic enemies aren't usually worth that sort of thing when you could just hit weaknesses or kill them outright, and serious bosses mostly aren't affected by knockdowns.

It just feels like they either needed to double down on the 'guns do more damage' aspect a lot (making it a powerful but heavily limited option you would need to manage) or they needed to buff the ammo count significantly (useful as a slightly stronger basic attack that you don't need to hoard as much). Heck, I feel like it might even have worked better if they'd only limited the number of shots per clip, allowing one to just unload each time they used the option... though keeping it mostly in line with other options in terms of damage and effects. As it is, I feel encouraged to save my ammo until I hit things with gun weaknesses, and there's few good opportunities to unload a bunch of rounds into an enemy (bosses being the main case, but often superseded by other moves).

Though despite my complaints, I do like the guns and how they all look/sound.
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Ringwraith

Re: Persona 5 - THE WAIT IS FINALLY OVER

Postby Ringwraith » Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:02 am

I may be on Hard, so enemies without weaknesses are a nightmare. ¬.¬
Hello Anubis and Scathach.
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Trix2000
Location: California

Re: Persona 5 - THE WAIT IS FINALLY OVER

Postby Trix2000 » Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:07 am

Scathach isn't that bad - by the time you hit her you should have Mediarama in spades, so it's only the physical move that's dangerous. Anubis, though... hate that damn dog.

I've mostly been using Morgana's punch and praying it crits for those. It's... more effective than most alternatives. >.>
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Trix2000
Location: California

Re: Persona 5 - THE WAIT IS FINALLY OVER

Postby Trix2000 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:35 pm

So, sixth dungeon down and...

...Okay, serious talk, if you haven't gotten through the events between the sixth and seventh dungeons (late November) DO NOT READ ANY OF THIS. Calling them 'super spoilers' almost seems like an understatement. Seriously, don't do it.

All I can say is that this game's writing and plot are definitely a match for the series as a whole in quality, and I still haven't even gotten to the end yet... there's still more to come!




PLEASANT BOY, NO! WHY WOULD YOU DO THIS!

I wish I could say I saw it coming, but that Akechi was the one behind the breakdowns caught me completely off guard despite making EVERY SORT OF SENSE in retrospect. I mean, they went so far as to make him a party member for a full dungeon, his own persona/animations/combat dialog and everything... yet it turns out he's only there for the one dungeon before the big reveal and he buggers off.

Looking back, this had been one of the few major questions I'd still had about the events to come. I already figured that Shido was the one pulling the strings on the whole deal (and even figured out he was the same guy who screwed me before the game started), but there was practically NO clues as to who was his hand in the Metaverse. My first instinct was that he was doing it himself, but as time went by that made less and less sense... it was clear someone else was doing the grunt work on this.

But the game provided no convenient suspects. I knew it had to be someone notable, someone we knew in some way, but nobody stuck out at all. They set Akechi up so perfectly that I always took him as what he wanted to appear as - the detective focused on bringing justice, who seemed smart enough to know more than anyone else about what was going on.

...I guess that should have been my first clue, but they hide it SO WELL.

Apparently Mr. Protag was paying way more attention than me, though. Noticing a little detail about PANCAKES of all things.

And the plan we eventually crafted to trick them was AMAZING. Even as it happened I couldn't tell how we'd pull it off. I mean, I DIED. How do you get out of that? I mean, Metaverse shenanigans seemed likely when the phone became the central focus, but I hadn't considered we'd deliberately set up the 'killing' to get the truth. Also, apparently it's possible to lose and get a bad ending here... which I guess ends in you actually being shot?

Throughout the game I'd wondered about the intro segment - how the heck we got in that situation, how I ended up being captured, how the interrogation would line up with the rest of the game. Now I know, and it was not anything that I really expected. I'm even more excited to see what comes as I make my way through Shido's dungeon (totally called it was a ship).


...But there's still one major thing niggling at me, something that's giving me major callbacks to P4 again (spoilers for that ahead, btw).

I've already had a good ending/bad ending choice which feels on-par with the choice regarding Namatame in 4. After both, we finally have an idea of the source of the killings/shutdowns that we can target and bring down... and succeeding in both will ostensibly lead to a happy ending, right?

Except... like in 4, there's still the big question mark that is the Metaverse (TV world), and in particular how I got into it in the first place. Unlike the other party members, I don't think I had anyone else alongside to bring me there... though the scene towards the beginning with frozen people is making me leery. I haven't made a connection on this yet, but I suspect this game also has a 'True Ending' of sorts, perhaps tied to... Mementos? Maybe something involving whatever is down there at the bottom...


Jeez, this game, man. I'm 85+ hours in and still a ways to go. It's definitely in the running for best in the series in my mind, but it all hinges on how it sticks the landing. Already I think it's earned all the praise it's gotten so far.
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Thomas

Re: Persona 5 - THE WAIT IS FINALLY OVER

Postby Thomas » Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:09 pm

There's some baffling bad translations in this game - which stick out more because it's so polished.

The most glaring one is Sojiro is referred to as Chief consistently through the first 3 dungeons - and then suddenly he's Boss. There's even a conversation where someone calls him Chief and someone else calls him Boss, and it's not deliberate. Immediately after Sojiro suddenly introduces himself as Boss, he says "And that's for you". He's actually pointing out an envelope that's addressed to you, but I spent the whole conversation thinking he was reprimanding you for not calling him Boss.

Kotaku pointed out that the class question about the Shogi piece is not only unguessable for Western players (and so poor localisation), but it's a mistranslation of the Japanese anyway.

Also, this isn't so egregious, but they call the second dungeon a museum, when it's actually a gallery. I know they do get used interchangeably in English sometimes, but it irked me.


It's a little unfair to call it baffling - it's because its a bloody long game with a ton of text, that's why - but now I realise it, I'm picking it out more often.

-----------------

Also this game is too long. It's great, which is why I'm still playing it 50 hours in, even though I almost never do that, but it doesn't matter how good it is, it can never be my favourite game because I won't be able to replay it. The length is already slightly harming my play experience, I don't bother checking out the new things crowd NPCs say anymore which means I lose out on some of the flavour and smaller stories.
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Trix2000
Location: California

Re: Persona 5 - THE WAIT IS FINALLY OVER

Postby Trix2000 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:56 pm

Thomas wrote:The most glaring one is Sojiro is referred to as Chief consistently through the first 3 dungeons - and then suddenly he's Boss. There's even a conversation where someone calls him Chief and someone else calls him Boss, and it's not deliberate. Immediately after Sojiro suddenly introduces himself as Boss, he says "And that's for you". He's actually pointing out an envelope that's addressed to you, but I spent the whole conversation thinking he was reprimanding you for not calling him Boss.
Weird, I didn't notice it being out of the blue - I thought that was just the point at which the nickname came up in conversation (like, he brought it up) so everyone started using it as a result.

However, I did find it odd that Sae uses it.

Also this game is too long. It's great, which is why I'm still playing it 50 hours in, even though I almost never do that, but it doesn't matter how good it is, it can never be my favourite game because I won't be able to replay it. The length is already slightly harming my play experience, I don't bother checking out the new things crowd NPCs say anymore which means I lose out on some of the flavour and smaller stories.
That's pretty normal, actually, and they don't really say anything that you couldn't afford missing. It's mostly just background flavor that you can peek at from time to time. P4 was similar, although there were less people and ground to cover since it was a smaller town.

Yeah, the length is definitely a big factor to consider, but I actually like it if only because it means the initial novel experience lasts longer... and these games are packed with content to the point where you likely never feel it gets repetitive (sort-of, the regular schedule may start to wear). The dungeons are also a LOT more interesting and distinct from each other which removes most of that repetitive problem from the prior games.

You might consider setting it aside after finishing it for a while, then replaying it down the line but with a guide to do all the links (or at least, the ones you missed). It's also interesting to go through the plot with knowledge of the endgame, because there are DEFINITELY things to look out for. Still, setting aside another 100+ hours can be tough... but then I think I've spent 300-400 total hours on P4 and P4G combined?



A couple further notes of mine:

- Bullet Hail looks and feels awesome. Leveling up Tower is a good idea.

- I had an entertaining time with the shadow you fight in the intro, who you fight again on 11/19 because I had Seth equipped... and he reflects fire. So instead of doing the fight the normal way like in the intro, I just sat back and watched as it Agidyne-d itself to death.
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The Rocketeer

Re: Persona 5 - THE WAIT IS FINALLY OVER

Postby The Rocketeer » Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:11 pm

I can't wait for the expanded re-release: P5 Platinum Marque, exclusively for the PlayStation Vita.
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Trix2000
Location: California

Re: Persona 5 - THE WAIT IS FINALLY OVER

Postby Trix2000 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:54 pm

The Rocketeer wrote:I can't wait for the expanded re-release: P5 Platinum Marque, exclusively for the PlayStation Vita.
...I'd play it. >.>
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Thomas

Re: Persona 5 - THE WAIT IS FINALLY OVER

Postby Thomas » Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:59 pm

Trix2000 wrote:Yeah, the length is definitely a big factor to consider, but I actually like it if only because it means the initial novel experience lasts longer... and these games are packed with content to the point where you likely never feel it gets repetitive (sort-of, the regular schedule may start to wear). The dungeons are also a LOT more interesting and distinct from each other which removes most of that repetitive problem from the prior games.

It's a testament to how good the game is that it hasn't got boring even in this length of time. And I'm definitely noticing the improvement in the dungeons and combat, which is why I think I've got further through this.

But it's just so massive that it's a fairly major disruption to my life. If I play 3 hours a day, it's still going to take me a month of solid play to finish. I think that level of personal impact is always going to hold a game back, no matter the brilliance, because I struggle to commit myself like that to something. I've read books in Italian (I don't speak Italian) that have required less dedication!
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Trix2000
Location: California

Re: Persona 5 - THE WAIT IS FINALLY OVER

Postby Trix2000 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:36 pm

On the plus side, it's very easy to break it up into smaller chunks due to the nature of the schedule - you can just run through a couple days and feel like you made significant progress despite only spending a shorter amount of time. Or spend a day in the dungeons/Mementos for a couple hours, which are sort-of designed to be done in chunks anyways (what with safe room placement and floors). There's not much discouraging shorter sessions, which is great for me since I have smaller chunks of time during the week. One of the main problems I had with, say, the Witcher 3 was that I couldn't get myself to play it without longer periods of free time - essentially ONLY weekends. I don't really like separating the experience by that much if I can help it, especially if I end up having to skip a weekend for more important things. :/

I do feel similarly in how long it extends in terms of finishing it, though considering it trumps most of the things on my gaming list I have little trouble devoting the time myself... but that comes down to my own habits. Then again, I don't know if it necessarily needs to be done all in one go, as I have taken a day or two here and there for breaks with other games. It sort-of lends itself to allowing that, and the only reason I haven't done more is because I really REALLY want to know what happens next.

I will say try to stick with it, because it really ramps up the stakes and intrigue as it goes on. I think it's a bit slower than 4 in terms of ramping up the main plot, but I think that has more to do with how it has to set up the group and what they are doing before it can throw the nasty wrenches into things. Fifth dungeon and on is where things start getting real.
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Thomas

Re: Persona 5 - THE WAIT IS FINALLY OVER

Postby Thomas » Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:20 pm

Trix2000 wrote:There's not much discouraging shorter sessions, which is great for me since I have smaller chunks of time during the week. One of the main problems I had with, say, the Witcher 3 was that I couldn't get myself to play it without longer periods of free time - essentially ONLY weekends.

That's an advantage I've noticed. I felt that Witcher 3 needed big blocks of time which made it more awkward, but Persona 5 splits up pretty well into chunks of whatever size you need. I often end up stopping before the PC goes to sleep at night, just before I go to sleep, which makes me a little bit happy :P
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Ringwraith

Re: Persona 5 - THE WAIT IS FINALLY OVER

Postby Ringwraith » Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:32 pm

Sojiro's multiple nicknames are I think actually carried over from the original Japanese, except they just stick with Boss for most people and pretty much only Morgana uses Chief, so I think it's condensed?
Japan like calling people "Boss". It's a thing.

Also, not got time to go in-depth, but yes, all those spoiler'd bits.
Just yes.
I pegged something was wrong, but they laid it out way better than I expected.

Also I think the bad ending is if you try and make a deal by selling out people, then the plan fails with predictable results.

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