Tyranny

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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Tyranny

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Tue Jan 03, 2017 2:19 pm

Wide And Nerdy wrote:I have no idea how they want me to play. Am I supposed to be a snarling bad guy? A long suffering employee? A dry functionary?


All of those are valid actually.You get to pick the flavor.

Wide And Nerdy wrote:Since this is the bad guy camp, am I to assume that everybody is a bad guy and deserves any abuse I dish out at them?


Pretty much,yeah.But not just there,the whole world deserves it.

Wide And Nerdy wrote:Will they disrespect me for being nice to people?


Some will.But then you get to punch them for it,so that balances out.

Wide And Nerdy wrote:And they tell me I'm supposed to be this Judge. Only last I checked Judges are supposed to have some actual familiarity with the legal system and I have no idea how the legal system would or should function in Evil-World. Which wouldn't be a big deal but I just got to the part where the game tells me "You have some latitude but if you get it wrong, Kyros will destroy you." Its like getting a surprise final exam on the first day of class and the teacher is holding a cattle prod in his hand.


Well,your character does know the law.And when specific laws are invoked,you get them explained to you,either through dialogue text or through those little lore blurbs.So you can inform yourself about most of it.

Wide And Nerdy wrote:Which is a shame because that opening choose your own adventure conquest segment made this whole thing seem more promising. I could have played a general. Why didn't my character get to keep being that?


Because you never were a general.Yes,you participated in some skirmishes,but you never actually led the armies,merely decided on which course they got to choose.You were an arbitrator even back then.
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Sudanna

Re: Tyranny

Postby Sudanna » Tue Jan 03, 2017 3:47 pm

Tyranny doesn't really -want -you to play any way in particular and doesn't really judge right or wrong for you. You can be any of the things you mentioned and more. I personally think it's plenty interesting and fun to play as the faithful, straightforwardly earnest I-have-order-to-keep-goddammit agent of a tyrant, it's not a character I get to be very often.

If you're having that much of a bad time working for Kyros, play as someone
that hates her whole deal, is just a Fatebinder cuz Fatebinders are picked by Tunon and don't get a choice. That pretty much all of the backgrounds support this is not an accident. And just go around trying to undermine everything you can get away with. The game does not -want- you to be evil, it rather studiously avoids telling you to take any particular choice and just lets you pick.

And if you do the right things, you can totally just join the Vendrien Guard at the end of Act 1 and be in a rebellion against Kyros. So. Maybe you would like that more.
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Ringwraith

Re: Tyranny

Postby Ringwraith » Tue Jan 03, 2017 4:11 pm

Crossing the streams, but in case anyone missed it, I mentioned one of the devs described it along the lines of "Bronze Age Judge Dredd", which is quite succinct for your given job description.

Daemian Lucifer wrote:Well,your character does know the law.And when specific laws are invoked,you get them explained to you,either through dialogue text or through those little lore blurbs.So you can inform yourself about most of it.

The green text for things your character should know /and also direct consequences of your actions is such a good idea.
Then they very quickly come up with another use for it and it's just excellent.
Steve C

Re: Tyranny

Postby Steve C » Tue Jan 03, 2017 6:28 pm

Humanoid wrote:You just register a new Steam account with just the one game on it. Then you can just sell/give that account to someone else down the line. Using a throwaway email address and fake personal details is advisable, of course.

<Raises hand>
This is what I do. I'm not doing it for refunds or anything. I don't even buy my Steam games via Steam. Most of my Steam games are via Humble Bundle. I register games on separate accounts so that I can give away a game to someone else if I so choose by giving away the account.

I'm simply not comfortable or happy with Steam's level of control over accounts. There are reports of Valve cancelling user accounts because users said bad things about Steam, or cheating in games, or various other things. To me, that's like Ford coming to your house and towing your car because you said bad things about them while breaking the speed limit. I personally find it deeply disturbing that Steam has effectively destroyed the first sale doctrine and consumers have generally responded with "meh".

While this is off topic to the thread, it is "Tyranny" so... /shrug.
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Wide And Nerdy

Re: Tyranny

Postby Wide And Nerdy » Tue Jan 03, 2017 6:39 pm

Ringwraith wrote:The green text for things your character should know /and also direct consequences of your actions is such a good idea.
Then they very quickly come up with another use for it and it's just excellent.


If you're talking about the Voices of Nerat using telepathy to communicate with you in the text tips, that is a pretty cool idea and it only gets cooler the more I think about it. The tips represent your memory, so it makes sense that Voices would talk to you there too.
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Thomas

Re: Tyranny

Postby Thomas » Tue Jan 03, 2017 7:24 pm

Nalyd wrote:And if you do the right things, you can totally just join the Vendrien Guard at the end of Act 1 and be in a rebellion against Kyros. So. Maybe you would like that more.

I think that's the problem with Tyranny's design. Unfinishedness aside, everything was designed with the idea of 'playthrough' but without much thought of 'moment' or 'level'. So playing Tyranny you lock yourselves into a way you're meant to play almost as soon as the first act ends and then if for whatever reason you change your mind it's suddenly horrible and unreactive (with the unfinishedness part meaning some areas are worse than others). That's why the ways of changing path are so horribly clunky and unreal - they were tacked on as plasters to cover something the game just wasn't meant to do.

I think it's a bad way to design a game. Alpha Protocol was moments and I thought that was a lot more successful in playability. Not many people play a game all the way through twice and even as 'short' as it is, 25 hours is an awful long time to force someone to roleplay according to the whims of the first few hours.

In Alpha Protocol you can change playstyle halfway through and sure, you're inconsistency might not work out well at the end, but you can do it. And then if you're dedicated and choose to playthrough the game you can be rewarded for committing.

EDIT: That's an aside though, Wide and Nerdy, they're right, if you hate playing the bureaucrat you should try siding with the Vendrian Guard. I also found myself feeling less like the pawn of the evil dude after finishing the act and maybe you'll feel that way too. If you get locked into following a dude you don't like, then if you betray them there's the option for a different kind of run too.

And I too also love what they did with the green text. In general I thought the green text was a sweet idea. I'm under the belief that some of the text pop-ups depend on your stats? If that's not true, I'd love to see a game where it was. You could even do something super indie where the different text pop-ups aren't necessarily truthful but reveal the different worldviews of the characters you can inhabit.
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Wide And Nerdy

Re: Tyranny

Postby Wide And Nerdy » Tue Jan 03, 2017 7:54 pm

Thomas wrote:
EDIT: That's an aside though, Wide and Nerdy, they're right, if you hate playing the bureaucrat you should try siding with the Vendrian Guard. I also found myself feeling less like the pawn of the evil dude after finishing the act and maybe you'll feel that way too. If you get locked into following a dude you don't like, then if you betray them there's the option for a different kind of run too.

And I too also love what they did with the green text. In general I thought the green text was a sweet idea. I'm under the belief that some of the text pop-ups depend on your stats? If that's not true, I'd love to see a game where it was. You could even do something super indie where the different text pop-ups aren't necessarily truthful but reveal the different worldviews of the characters you can inhabit.


I'll see how the story handles me being a rebel then. It feels a little bit weird that my character would do what he has done and only now, as Kyros is perched to secure domination of the last free lands, does he say "Ok, now I'm switching teams." Maybe he's like a gamer who imposes arbitrary challenges on himself to keep life interesting.

Or, if this is the story about Sauron winning, maybe this is also the story where Saruman's plan succeeds and I can go all Starscream on Kyros. That would make a little more sense with the choices I've made to date so I'll save rebellion for the next playthrough. This could be like Sinestro who believes its best to bring order to the galaxy and does so through fear, for the Galaxy's own good. It would fit the tactics I chose in the Conquest sequence. My approach was to end wars quickly through the use of fear and undermining of the enemy from within. That was actually a lot of fun. I hope there's more of that.
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4th Dimension

Re: Tyranny

Postby 4th Dimension » Tue Jan 03, 2017 11:22 pm

Wide And Nerdy wrote:Or, if this is the story about Sauron winning, maybe this is also the story where Saruman's plan succeeds and I can go all Starscream on Kyros.

It kind of is excatly that. In the END the Kyros forces your hand no matter what you chose to make a move against him and use the Spires to cast your own edict against his lands.

As for Law: When you finally meet Tunon after the Verendian Veil section of the game, you can ask him about the details of the laws, and he will even give his thoughts about why he considers them just.
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Wide And Nerdy

Re: Tyranny

Postby Wide And Nerdy » Mon Jan 09, 2017 5:21 pm

Still playing. Its good enough that I might as well.

I'll give it this, a lot of games refer to recent events that are before the player arrived. This game, the player is making a lot of the history, as are some of his companions like Sirin.

Speaking of, my goal with her is to show I'm strong enough to resist her will so that we can have a genuine friendship (kind of big brother type deal) she's Mission Vao if Mission had super powers that gained her the attention of the powers that be.

I got around to having a conversation with Verse about why we're traveling together. She asked me and I said I thought we were friends. I knew better than to go with "I have feelings for you." This is an Obsidian game after all. Hope and joy are things to be mocked.

But either because of a bug in the game or because Obsidian has become even bigger dicks since Avellone left, she reacted as though I were hitting on her. And again, this being an Obsidian game, she told me to shove it.

This seems wildly out of character for her. I knew she wasn't the romantic type but I took her to be the type that would jump into bed with a guy just to blow off some steam or because she was bored (as I figure is typical of a member of the Scarlet Chorus). Not that I was going for that. Really if anything I figured she thought of me as a friend and would be offended if I didn't acknowledge it. This feels like a gotcha.

I killed Eb of course. It would be stupid to accept her into the party and I didn't care to hear anymore of her opinions about men (way to introduce a companion Obsidian). This in a game where the maximum level of warmth between any two people could already be summarized as "I feel a strange nonhatred of you in spite of how pathetic and/or vile you are."

I'm playing Saruman this run through but its getting harder to resist the "Betray Alliance" option. I really wish I hadn't sided with the Scarlet Chorus.
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4th Dimension

Re: Tyranny

Postby 4th Dimension » Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:17 am

Why did you side with them in the first place?
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Wide And Nerdy

Re: Tyranny

Postby Wide And Nerdy » Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:49 am

4th Dimension wrote:Why did you side with them in the first place?


I didn't realize that was the decision I was making. I thought I was just picking an army for the final charge. I knew the disfavored would be mad but I didn't realize I was taking sides in a new civil war. I must have missed a cue somewhere. I picked the Scarlet Chorus for the charge because they were larger and had all these expendable conscripts. And because going with the wild army of ax crazies fit with my early playstyle of trying win by scaring the shit out of my opponents. The Conquest segment offered those options and winning with terror and chaos as opposed to brute force seemed an interesting way to go.
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Wide And Nerdy

Re: Tyranny

Postby Wide And Nerdy » Fri Jan 13, 2017 9:24 pm

I knew this was coming. The game tells you over and over again. But its still a giddy feeling to finally issue my own Edict. See the land set on fire. See my tower light up.

But the best part is the part the game doesn't draw as much attention too. Kyros commands the Archons to kill each other and let the last Archon rule. Yet he/she doesn't issue an edict. Calo calls this clever, that Kyros knows no Edict is necessary.

But I know that Kyros is scared to issue another Edict. Scared that I will claim that power.

Or that is my character's assumption. I'm still playing Saruman. I'm not stupid enough to believe that I can just turn Kyros's power on him/her at a whim, at least not yet. Rather the advantage I have is that Kyros must be cautious.

It does occur to me also that this could be Kyros plan all along. She saw the potential and she finds use for someone who can proclaim edicts with their own strength. She surmises that its worth the risk to let me cultivate that power if it meant that she could use my strength and reserve her own. But she must know that anyone experiencing such power will experience a surge of ambition. That seems typical of Archons. It also seems obvious that Kyros and her power were always in some way connected with the spires. She's supposed to be ancient beyond count and so are these artifacts. Why else would a spire be awakened by an edict and then be able to help me proclaim them in turn?

In fact maybe I am nobody special. Maybe anybody who did the exact same things would have ended up the same. It would be interesting if Kyros was figuring out how to forge her own Archons.

Anyway. What I'm trying to say is the writing is paying off. I complain about all the grimdark and misery in their stories but this is why I put up with it. Once it comes together, its rewarding to think about.

Though it has yet to reach the level of Pillars and its musings on the nature of gods, religions, and faiths. Maybe now that I'm more engaged, a second playthrough will show me musings about the nature of tyranny. Many tyrants were worshipped as divinities in the past after all. Seems like the whole Archon thing and the way the power of an Archon is awoken is a parallel.


EDIT: "I Sirin, Archon of Song, hereby swear fealty to Norm MacDonald."

I love games that actually use your character's name.
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Thomas

Re: Tyranny

Postby Thomas » Sat Jan 14, 2017 10:05 am

I love the idea that Kyros (possibly*) understands that with no worlds left conquer it's the conquerers, his armies, which are the biggest threat to Kyros' stability. So what better to incite civil war between those armies and have a third party finish them off?

Also Kyros' status as Tyrant is cemented by faith in Kyros. Both in belief that he will learn about their actions and punish ones those he does not like and you can't be sure which ones he will like and in the belief that he can do great and marvellous things if he so chooses to be on your good side. And you can see that from a real-world view where NPCs who would never normally be loyal to someone like Kyros, absolutely bend to his will, and also in the fantasy world that belief seems to drive people's power in this world. If you want to change the world, bad or good, you have to be known and do big things that let people know you (and then of course, once you are known you are in a position where big acts come more easily to you)

And when you look at that part, so much of Kyros' law makes sense. My favourite is, it's illegal to use Kyros' name to mean anything but Kyros himself. You can't name your kids Kyros, you can't use it like a curseword of some concept rather than person. Kyros is so infamous that he's worried that other people and things being called Kyros will dilute his fame and so dilute his power.

Tyranny seems full of smart moments like that. I love the speculation that Kyros' made visiting the Outer Walls illegal but not visiting the Spires, because making the Spires illegal would draw attention to them and so it's better to just happen to ban the only way of visiting them. It feels very Soviet Russia.

-----------------

Also people complain about the ending (and I can see why, a series of boss battles definitely does feel rushed), but I enjoyed it. It felt like the stakes had been raised and I like games that don't take longer than they need. And the things you can do in the ending act are amazing. I love the court battle with Tunon where you can convince him that, whilst Kyros' law is just, _Kyros might not be the best instigator of his law_. Kyros' law is just, but it is _you_ who best knows how to obey it
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4th Dimension

Re: Tyranny

Postby 4th Dimension » Sat Jan 14, 2017 10:51 am

Hmm, the idea that the entire campaign was nothing more than a way to wipe out potential future problems is interesting and does seem to hold water. Hell the first edict the one that traps Chorus and Disfavoured with a sword above their heads fits this perfectly. You were never supposed to have succeded. Both Arachons and the rebellion was supposed to have died in the Vendrian Veil.

As for the Kyros planning for you to become a Spiremaster, given how quickly he turns on you as soon as it's apparent that you are not going to stop collecting spires.

As for Kyros making Arachons, that is not really what she does. Arachons simply happen naturally, and their creation is a bit of clap your hands if you belive type of situation where myth gives rise to actual powers. Ashe for example began as simply an above average commander, but then as his fame grew and especially as his fame that his troops survive better than others (probably mostly because of superior training, armor and leadership) he got a reputation as a protector of his troops and it snowballed from there. The fact that Arachons serve Kyros is not because he creates them, but because Bleden Mark's main job is slaying those that don't bend their knee to the Kyros.
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Wide And Nerdy

Re: Tyranny

Postby Wide And Nerdy » Sat Jan 14, 2017 10:58 pm

Thomas wrote:I love the idea that Kyros (possibly*) understands that with no worlds left conquer it's the conquerers, his armies, which are the biggest threat to Kyros' stability. So what better to incite civil war between those armies and have a third party finish them off?

Also Kyros' status as Tyrant is cemented by faith in Kyros. Both in belief that he will learn about their actions and punish ones those he does not like and you can't be sure which ones he will like and in the belief that he can do great and marvellous things if he so chooses to be on your good side. And you can see that from a real-world view where NPCs who would never normally be loyal to someone like Kyros, absolutely bend to his will, and also in the fantasy world that belief seems to drive people's power in this world. If you want to change the world, bad or good, you have to be known and do big things that let people know you (and then of course, once you are known you are in a position where big acts come more easily to you)

And when you look at that part, so much of Kyros' law makes sense. My favourite is, it's illegal to use Kyros' name to mean anything but Kyros himself. You can't name your kids Kyros, you can't use it like a curseword of some concept rather than person. Kyros is so infamous that he's worried that other people and things being called Kyros will dilute his fame and so dilute his power.

Tyranny seems full of smart moments like that. I love the speculation that Kyros' made visiting the Outer Walls illegal but not visiting the Spires, because making the Spires illegal would draw attention to them and so it's better to just happen to ban the only way of visiting them. It feels very Soviet Russia.

-----------------

Also people complain about the ending (and I can see why, a series of boss battles definitely does feel rushed), but I enjoyed it. It felt like the stakes had been raised and I like games that don't take longer than they need. And the things you can do in the ending act are amazing. I love the court battle with Tunon where you can convince him that, whilst Kyros' law is just, _Kyros might not be the best instigator of his law_. Kyros' law is just, but it is _you_ who best knows how to obey it



Well finished the game.

First the bad. I was warned that the game ends abruptly and still managed to run smack into it like a glass door. When I was told Kyros would be sending his forces after me, I figured I might actually have a final battle after proclaiming the Edict. Though I guess it makes some sense that after inflicting such devastation, the forces would be called back to deal with it.

The ending then proceeded to blame me for a bunch of shit that I was going to fix but was inexplicably never given the opportunity to do so. Like ending the Edicts of Storms and Stones. There has to be a bug. When I arrived to deal with Cairn, the Earthshakers were all dead for no reason. I did make myself the Prima of the Stonestalkers but I didn't give them an order to dispatch the Earthshakers (which I read you can do).

Likewise there was no way to deal with Amelia. I'd sided with the Voices so I could only kill her right this instant or send her away and she gets to the Voices before I can speak to her. And I don't get the option to smother the baby. So there's no way to end the Edict. I don't know how far back I would have had to go to get back to the last time you can betray the Scarlet Chorus.

So anyway, that sucked but the rest of it was pretty good, especially the part in the courtroom you alluded to. I've never in fiction or non fiction seen a trial end with the judge, an avatar of justice no less, taking a knee before the defendant, an enemy of the nation of the court, to swear fealty out of awe of his superior justice. That might be the most ridiculously awesome thing I've ever seen accomplished by any character outside of a Chuck Norris Fact. I was not expecting that at all. I was simply going along because my Fatebinder reckoned it would be a waste to kill his old boss before receiving his justice one last time. But I made a mostly honest acquittal of my actions and the game assumed that I did what I did because I was stuck in a situation where there was no justice in taking a side. Which fits. I did rebel against the Scarlet Chorus because I couldn't take it anymore.
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Wide And Nerdy

Re: Tyranny

Postby Wide And Nerdy » Sat Jan 14, 2017 11:07 pm

4th Dimension wrote:As for Kyros making Arachons, that is not really what she does. Arachons simply happen naturally, and their creation is a bit of clap your hands if you belive type of situation where myth gives rise to actual powers.


No I understand. I know Archons normally happen the way you said (though Sirin doesn't fit). I was just saying that Kyros might be trying to forge a specific type of Archon for a specific purpose. But you're right, given that there is apparently no way to appease Kyros, I guess that wasn't his/her plan. So this was an accident and Kyros got his power some other way. Perhaps its simply that you have some natural ability that is awakened by the edicts. They mention that the tower resonates with your voice so its then boosting this power the Edicts awakened in you so that you can proclaim the Edicts you've absorbed. Maybe Kyros started this way at a different spire.

Is there a DLC coming? There locked Spire slots when I finished and the way the game ends, I have to think there was meant to be more. Honestly, I think they owe us a bit more but I'd still pay for it. Obsidian has done me right enough that I'll forgive this. But after this I no longer feel guilty for first buying New Vegas with all its DLC for 6 bucks. This cancels that. Well that and buying that second copy of Pillars.
Ninety-Three

Re: Tyranny

Postby Ninety-Three » Sun Jan 15, 2017 12:53 am

Wide And Nerdy wrote:Is there a DLC coming?


Seems unlikely, given that it's selling at about a third the rate of Pillars. I just looked that up, and now I'm disappointed. For all Tyranny's flaws, it was a step in the right direction and I'd hate to see Obsidian drop RPGs to focus on the other half of their business where they make mid-sized F2P games that no one cares about because they're F2P.
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Thomas

Re: Tyranny

Postby Thomas » Sun Jan 15, 2017 2:51 am

Wide And Nerdy wrote:
4th Dimension wrote:As for Kyros making Arachons, that is not really what she does. Arachons simply happen naturally, and their creation is a bit of clap your hands if you belive type of situation where myth gives rise to actual powers.


No I understand. I know Archons normally happen the way you said (though Sirin doesn't fit). I was just saying that Kyros might be trying to forge a specific type of Archon for a specific purpose. But you're right, given that there is apparently no way to appease Kyros, I guess that wasn't his/her plan. So this was an accident and Kyros got his power some other way. Perhaps its simply that you have some natural ability that is awakened by the edicts. They mention that the tower resonates with your voice so its then boosting this power the Edicts awakened in you so that you can proclaim the Edicts you've absorbed. Maybe Kyros started this way at a different spire.

There's in-text evidence that confirms your theory that Kyros is deliberately trying to craft an Archon of Spires. We don't know for definite he is, but several people in the game speculate that he must be, because they point out that it was odd for him to send someone to proclaim two edicts (which presumably he previously avoided to stop people believing in that person. They also point out that he chose the location of the second edict so that you _would_ end up at the bottom of a spire unless you died in the process.

I think there's also evidence that Kyros has deliberately crafted Archon's by putting them in situations where their fame will grow in the right areas for him. He's certainly very good at finding people who are gathering Archon level power, making sure they're bent to his will and then putting them in situations where they will fully attain status. He did that with the Disfavoured, when Kyros approached Ashe, Ashe had become powerful, but he wasn't a fully recognised Archon. My memory is a bit vagu here though.

I also believe it's very likely that Kyros got started the same way you did. Unlike other things he/she tries to erase people's memories of spires and to make them believe that she is older than the spires even though it's the other way round.

The bit I can't decide is, is the power you assume at the end of the game still in Kyros' plan or did she want you get enough power to help defeat the other archon's but overshot it and created something even Kyros will struggle to control.

It's one time where I really appreciate keeping the main villain distant and unknown. You don't lack information on Kyros, everyone has their own insights into her/him and then can range from real information to baseless speculation - and the whole world and events are driven by Kyros so you can draw conclusions from that too. But the vagueness makes Kyros unpredictable and puts questions on every event. Did Kyros mean this to happen? If you lose the court battle with Tunon and you went down the anarchy path, then Bleden Mark will attack Tunon only to be annihilated by measures Kyros put in place to stop him - measures which Bleden Mark thought he'd used you to circumvent. That suggests Kyros wouldn't give you this power unless he had some way of bringing you down and since he hasn't, either you unknowingly broke free or you're actions are still what was desired

If they do make a sequel (which sadly seems unlikely), they'd have to be so careful about what they reveal. Either they have some great thematic twist where Kryos is completely other, or keep him/them vague. I'll be sad even to learn their gender if he's going to be straightforward evil. I'm tempted by the idea that Kyros doesn't even really exist anymore. That was a really cool theme of the Archon's in the final act, them pointing out that they are as much victims to Archonification as benefiters. Do you always think I was a hooded mask of hate and lies?. Archon's are all changed by their process and none of them are happy about it - Tunon didn't judge me well because I persisted on talking about his masks and the fact that Tunon almost certainly doesn't have a face beneath them either. And Ashe was never comfortable with his divinity, as a man who had always been a soldier amongst soldiers, the first amongst equals whose devotion and attention to his brethren had attained magic, as an Archon he was no longer one of them and it destroyed his core.

So if all that is true of people who are just the Archon of Shadows or War or Secrets, what has happened to the Archon of Everything? Surely he has no humanity left. Maybe he is just a voice on each person's tongue and a chain in the heart now. The Archon of Song and others describe him as a person, but it's hard to fully trust them and Ashe and Tunon knew him before Kyros had reached his zenith.
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Wide And Nerdy

Re: Tyranny

Postby Wide And Nerdy » Sun Jan 15, 2017 2:58 am

Yeah, I won't do Free to Play even for them. They could make New Vegas 2 with all the creative talent returning and Bethesda giving them plenty of time to for once make their game complete and to vision, but if its Free to Play, forget it. Even if they find some exquisite way to do it that really enriches the experience.

Starting my new game where I'm going to stand with the rebels. The game stops you from choosing certain names for your character. Took me a few minutes but it turns out they will let you name your character Overlord. I guess the script just checks your name against NPC names and certain keywords (for example you can't name your character Fatebinder. But now I'm wondering if I could have named him McFatebinder. )

There's in-text evidence that confirms your theory that Kyros is deliberately trying to craft an Archon of Spires. We don't know for definite he is, but several people in the game speculate that he must be, because they point out that it was odd for him to send someone to proclaim two edicts (which presumably he previously avoided to stop people believing in that person. They also point out that he chose the location of the second edict so that you _would_ end up at the bottom of a spire unless you died in the process.

I think there's also evidence that Kyros has deliberately crafted Archon's by putting them in situations where their fame will grow in the right areas for him. He's certainly very good at finding people who are gathering Archon level power, making sure they're bent to his will and then putting them in situations where they will fully attain status. He did that with the Disfavoured, when Kyros approached Ashe, Ashe had become powerful, but he wasn't a fully recognised Archon. My memory is a bit vagu here though.


Ok so the theory is back on. I guess Obsidian ran out of time and wrote a buggy and incomplete ending. And with the sales being what they are, it won't be fleshed out. There's all of ten mods for the game; portrait packs mostly. No DLC. This is what we get.

What were they thinking? They're Obsidian and this is the second fantasy game on their new engine. They had an audience. They needed to finish out the ending. Surely the sales would have been there if they had. Their game is too short for this to go unnoticed by reviewers and lets players.
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Wide And Nerdy

Re: Tyranny

Postby Wide And Nerdy » Sun Jan 15, 2017 3:42 am

Well I just finished my second playthrough of Tyranny. I waited till 4 hours before the end Kyros Day of Swords to proclaim the Edict. I then fast traveled a couple of times. Everybody died, including all the Tiersmen, the Archons and the forces. Kyros reigns supreme. Seriously. I retired Overlord and am now playing Bronylord.

Onto my third playthrough.
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4th Dimension

Re: Tyranny

Postby 4th Dimension » Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:56 am

The reason Tyranny did not sell is not because the ending is weak, but because it was marketed improperly (there was not enough marketing and the marketing strategy "world where evil won" (which is not true) was bad and did not appeal to wide audiences) and was considered more of Path of Exile, where PoE got mixed reviews and people in the end did not so much like the combat.

Well untill you hit the end part all clues do point to the fact that Kyross handpicked you one way or another and that you are yourself special. You are special for one because you SURVIVED proclamations of MULTIPLE edicts. I think they mention that proclaiming edicts often leads to death since human body can not stand the strain of the power of the Edict. On the other hand wasn't it Tunon who handpicked you for the job? In fact several backgrounds tie you more closely to him than to anyone else.

As a loyal follower of Kyross I was kind of pissed at the end since it railroaded me into rebellion.
Ninety-Three

Re: Tyranny

Postby Ninety-Three » Sun Jan 15, 2017 1:11 pm

Kyros's motives felt like nonsense to me. The game was pretty clear that the thing that's special about you, and also the thing that started you claiming spires, was that you both proclaimed and resolved the same edict (inside a spire no less), all of which was the result of deliberate actions taken by Kyros. Whether it was known that this would you result in you claiming the spire was unclear, but since your spire magic is identical to Kyros' spire magic, it seems likely that Kyros' edicts are powered by Spires so Kyros should know damn well how Spires are claimed which suggests it was no accident. And if it was an accident, Kyros should be immediately worried about someone claiming spires, and Bleden Mark should've been sent to kill you at the end of chapter 1. Why would Kyros want you to start claiming spires? The game never goes anywhere with this because it ends just as you're putting things together.

Kyros turning on you at the end makes no sense: After promoting you specifically so that there was a chance you could take over the region, Kyros is suddenly unhappy with you controlling the region? Even if you've perfectly loyal? Doesn't even just ask "Hey, can I have the region now?" And Kyros decides the way to solve this problem is to walk an army into an edict that everyone knows you have and everyone knows will crush an army? Then once this happens Kyros is content to leave you in peace?

Like with most broken plots, you can imagine a bunch of details that are never hinted at which paper over the problems, but as written it just doesn't come together. Based on how abruptly the end comes, I assume the ending was rushed and didn't make as much sense as they meant for it to.
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krellen
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Re: Tyranny

Postby krellen » Sun Jan 15, 2017 1:46 pm

I do not think Kyros meant for you to fulfil the Edict of Swords. I think Kyros meant for you to die in the Vale, along with Ashe and Nerat. That you hadn't died after the first Edict worried her, and she set you up for failure and death in a way that would take care of multiple problems (remember, Mark wasn't loyal to Kyros, he was loyal to Tunan, which means sending him to kill one of Tunan's own Fatebinders might tip off Tunan to something Kyros would rather he remain ignorant of.)

I think gaining control of the Spire weakened Kyros's power over the region, creating a protective blanket of area that could not be affected by Kyros's Edicts, but by your own. And Kyros turns on you because there is no way she could rule easy letting an equal serve beneath her. She could never trust you to stay loyal and it is easier to eliminate a threat early than late - though clearly she waited too long (perhaps she overplayed her hand using so many Edicts in the region and never expected you to master them so quickly.)
Ninety-Three

Re: Tyranny

Postby Ninety-Three » Sun Jan 15, 2017 2:22 pm

krellen wrote:I do not think Kyros meant for you to fulfil the Edict of Swords. I think Kyros meant for you to die in the Vale, along with Ashe and Nerat. That you hadn't died after the first Edict worried her, and she set you up for failure and death in a way that would take care of multiple problems (remember, Mark wasn't loyal to Kyros, he was loyal to Tunan, which means sending him to kill one of Tunan's own Fatebinders might tip off Tunan to something Kyros would rather he remain ignorant of.)


If Kyros wanted everyone in the valley dead, the Edict would've just been "Everyone in the Vale dies, now", no need to mess around with escape clauses. The despotic regime could have executed your fatebinder on false charges while they were still a level one nobody, if it was important for you to die. The "Only one archon" proclamation is a terrible way to set you up for failure and death, because aside from the fact that the game's only story is "You become Grand Archon", there's no narrative reason your fatebinder couldn't just swear fealty to Ashe or Nerat, ensuring their survival and the victory of that faction.

Even disregarding all those options, Mark is referred to as "Kyros' executioner", Mark doesn't particularly like Tunon, at the end Mark does attack you on Kyros' orders, and Tunon is shown to be ridiculously loyal, so your reasoning is deeply flawed anyway.

krellen wrote:I think gaining control of the Spire weakened Kyros's power over the region, creating a protective blanket of area that could not be affected by Kyros's Edicts, but by your own. And Kyros turns on you because there is no way she could rule easy letting an equal serve beneath her. She could never trust you to stay loyal and it is easier to eliminate a threat early than late - though clearly she waited too long (perhaps she overplayed her hand using so many Edicts in the region and never expected you to master them so quickly.)


Yeah, the game implies that your realms are protected from Kyros' edicts, and vice versa. But that doesn't explain why Kyros decided the solution to this problem was to send an army at the fatebinder who already routed an army with Edicts. That's just an obviously bad decision. Everything you say about Kyros' not trusting you falls under "you can imagine a bunch of details that are never hinted at": we have no idea why Kyros did it because we know nothing. If Kyros had just asked my character to hand over the realms I would've done it, I don't want to govern anyway. It costs nothing but sixty seconds for Kyros to send a letter in advance of the army asking you to hand over everything, and if Kyros still doesn't trust you it would still be beneficial to give you a chance to surrender your realms before trying to kill you.
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Thomas

Re: Tyranny

Postby Thomas » Sun Jan 15, 2017 3:37 pm

In-game suggests that him trying to decimate his largest armies and most powerful generals makes sense. And his last proclamation ties in with that goal. By themselves the Disfavoured and Chorus night remain deadlocked or win decisively. By adding you Kyros ensured that the power struggle was three way.

Why he let you become Archon of Spires isn't explained. But that's not a bad game or unfinished writing. There's so many different conversations and details in game which point to it being deliberate, there's no way it was a last minute decision.

Kyros at the moment is occupying the Reaper role in ME1. His short term motivation is cool and seems to make sense. His long term motivation is unknown and probably not finalised by the writers. Its a fine sequel hook, it just depends on the sequel. There's nothing wrong with letting peoples imagination fill in the blanks and it seems to me there are plenty of ways they could fill them in.

Its like what Obsidian did with Revan in KOTOR2. Everyone speculates on Revans motivation and suggests possibilities, but doesn't fill them in

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