Gushing/ranting about interesting games in development

Ninety-Three

Re: Gushing/ranting about interesting games in development

Postby Ninety-Three » Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:17 pm

John wrote:For the record, Walker thought that the writing and the interface were terrible. For this, it seems, he must die.


You're misrepresenting the situation. John Walker said the game was bad, and for that he must die. It doesn't matter what he said, hyped people want to like the game, Walker did not like the game, so people are upset. It's the same phenomenon that generates internet outrage when a reviewer gives an Uncharted a game a mere eight out of ten: none of those people are mad about the specifics of the 8/10 review.
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Lachlan the Sane
Location: I come from the land down under, where women blow and men chunder

Re: Gushing/ranting about interesting games in development

Postby Lachlan the Sane » Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:31 pm

Ninety-Three wrote:
John wrote:For the record, Walker thought that the writing and the interface were terrible. For this, it seems, he must die.


You're willfully misrepresenting the situation. John Walker said the game was bad, and for that he must die. It doesn't matter what he said, hyped people want to like the game, Walker did not like the game, so people are upset. It's the same phenomenon that generates internet outrage when a reviewer gives an Uncharted a game a mere eight out of ten: none of those people are mad about the specifics of the 8/10 review.

It is apparently the season for rabid fanboyism. Jim Sterling is copping a lot of that same kind of shit right now from Zelda fanboys because he gave BotW a 7/10. These particular fanboys have, for whatever reason, decided that BotW is the diametrically opposed Good Twin of Horizon: Zero Dawn, and that Jim must therefore be on the Side of Evil because he rated HZD higher than BotW.

I really don't understand how the fanboy brain works here. Apparently it isn't enough that you like Game X: everybody else in the world has to like Game X too. Is it chronic insecurity, projectionist denial, or just a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of criticism? I can sort of understand this depth of emotion when it comes to things that affect human lives, like religion or politics, but this is just art criticism, and ephemeral art at that. Nobody's going to die of starvation just because BotW's Metacritic score slipped down to 97.

(The whole thing with Evil Opposites is weird as well. I vaguely recall that Adventure Time and MLP were evil opposites for a while, and fanboys insisted that you had to believe that one series was objectively the best thing ever and the other was trash garbage. The fact that people are allowed to like more than one thing doesn't seem to cross their minds.)
Ninety-Three

Re: Gushing/ranting about interesting games in development

Postby Ninety-Three » Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:45 pm

Lachlan the Mad wrote:I really don't understand how the fanboy brain works here. Apparently it isn't enough that you like Game X: everybody else in the world has to like Game X too. Is it chronic insecurity, projectionist denial, or just a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of criticism?


My best understanding of it is that the fanboy thinks games are objectively, universally, good or bad. It follows from this premise that anyone who speaks ill of a well-regarded game is at best objectively wrong, and at worst they are the Grinch Of Videogames who goes around deliberately hating things and lying to people.
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Retsam

Re: Gushing/ranting about interesting games in development

Postby Retsam » Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:53 pm

Isn't it always the season for rampant fanboyism? I think there's particularly a lot of fanboyism around high-nostalgia titles like Zelda (and increasingly, Mass Effect). When people have a strong emotional attachment to a game or series, they tend to take criticism of it like an attack on their character.

---

I will say, John Walker is the guy who opened with "Do you think that you're a pathological liar?" when interviewing Peter Molyneux, so I don't have the highest esteem in his journalistic integrity. That said, Andromeda really is looking pretty not great; particularly based on stuff like this.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Gushing/ranting about interesting games in development

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Thu Mar 16, 2017 3:13 pm

Ninety-Three wrote:My best understanding of it is that the fanboy thinks games are objectively, universally, good or bad.


So a fanboy is basically belkar,only less cool.

Joking aside,I think the stupid preorder culture also plays heavily into this,because when you dump money into something before it even comes out,you have to convince everyone that you made the smart choice,that it is the best thing ever.Otherwise,youd have to admit that maybe you did a stupid thing on impulse.And no one wants to admit that.
Ninety-Three

Re: Gushing/ranting about interesting games in development

Postby Ninety-Three » Thu Mar 16, 2017 3:22 pm

Retsam wrote:I will say, John Walker is the guy who opened with "Do you think that you're a pathological liar?" when interviewing Peter Molyneux, so I don't have the highest esteem in his journalistic integrity.


Why does that question impugn his journalistic integrity?

That Infamous Interview wrote:My first question wasn’t, ‘Are you a Machiavellian and spiteful liar’, it was ‘Are you a pathological liar?’ It was, do you say stuff that isn’t true without meaning to?
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John

Re: Gushing/ranting about interesting games in development

Postby John » Thu Mar 16, 2017 5:06 pm

The thing that baffles me about this whole situation is that people are up in arms about criticism of a game that they haven't even played yet. I could almost understand it if the game had been released. I mean, I thought that the people baying for the head of Quintin Smith after his Fallout: New Vegas review were rather over-doing it, but at least they could contrast claims in his review with their own direct experience of the game. I wish I could say that this was a new or recent phenomenon but it isn't. Years ago, Adam Sessler gave a 9 out of 10 to, oh, some Resident Evil or Metal Gear game and apparently got so many angry letters from people who hadn't played the game but nevertheless somehow "knew" that it deserved a score of 10 that he felt obliged to do a five-minute bit in a subsequent show telling people to get a grip already.
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Trix2000
Location: California

Re: Gushing/ranting about interesting games in development

Postby Trix2000 » Thu Mar 16, 2017 5:33 pm

Daemian Lucifer wrote:Joking aside,I think the stupid preorder culture also plays heavily into this,because when you dump money into something before it even comes out,you have to convince everyone that you made the smart choice,that it is the best thing ever.Otherwise,youd have to admit that maybe you did a stupid thing on impulse.And no one wants to admit that.
Yes, I think this is a large part of it, though I think it also extends beyond that to anyone who has significant investment in a series (such as playing prior games). People want it to be good and a return to the experiences they loved in the past, so anything that contradicts that hope is a harsh truth they don't want to hear. So for a number of people it's easier and better to assume the negative review was the problem, rather than face the reality and disappointment that you may not be getting what you wanted.

After all, it's not hard for people to dismiss reviewers considering there's such a variety of them (and potential inconsistency in scores) - obviously this one case it just "one of those people" who doesn't recognize the true value of the game. Why did they even BOTHER reviewing it, I mean?!

And maybe there's a slight bit of reasoning there, since it could just be that a particular reviewer has a different perspective and experience than the audience might. But that is little excuse for the verbal abuse and dismissal that often comes along with this sort of thing - people don't have to like or agree with a review, but there's no reason to be a jerk about it.


There's perhaps also an element of the usual "can't take criticism" thing, only applied to people's tastes?
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Gushing/ranting about interesting games in development

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Thu Mar 16, 2017 7:21 pm

Ninety-Three wrote:
Retsam wrote:I will say, John Walker is the guy who opened with "Do you think that you're a pathological liar?" when interviewing Peter Molyneux, so I don't have the highest esteem in his journalistic integrity.


Why does that question impugn his journalistic integrity?


Indeed.Since when was honesty detrimental to journalism?
gloatingswine

Re: Gushing/ranting about interesting games in development

Postby gloatingswine » Thu Mar 16, 2017 7:56 pm

John wrote:The thing that baffles me about this whole situation is that people are up in arms about criticism of a game that they haven't even played yet.


Welcome to the Internet, you must be new here.

This is how the Internet works, people decide that a game is good based on nothing but prior expectations and if reviews say it isn't then those reviewers are biased and wrong and need to be driven out into the wilds to starve.
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John

Re: Gushing/ranting about interesting games in development

Postby John » Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:44 pm

gloatingswine wrote:Welcome to the Internet, you must be new here.

This is how the Internet works, people decide that a game is good based on nothing but prior expectations and if reviews say it isn't then those reviewers are biased and wrong and need to be driven out into the wilds to starve.

No, no. I fully expect this sort of thing, as indicated by the part of my post you didn't quote. I understand that these attitudes exist, I just don't understand why they exist.
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Thomas

Re: Gushing/ranting about interesting games in development

Postby Thomas » Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:22 pm

Jim's theory, which I found interesting, was that because people pay so much money for videogames, it's important that people validate their purchases in the eyes of others too. So Zelda fans don't want to just enjoy the game, they want to know they are the owners and fanbase of a game that got 98 on Metacritic, and the game only getting 97 on Metacritic and being reviewed less favourably than Horizon is a situation that needs to be rectified.

I'm not sure it's a true theory though. The crux for me, would be to decide whether the intensity of this changes with less costly media. Is this more common with games than it is with films? Is it more common with films than TV? Is it more common with TV than music? Do people who pirate media do this less? (I'm sure some of these Mass Effect fans haven't preordered yet, but you could argue they're caught up in the culture that created them).

If you look, I fell into the same trap this week. I deleted my last post in the Tyranny thread (which wasn't bad like some of my previous posts in that thread, just pointless), where I caught myself making some really tenuous arguments about part of the game I'd never thought or cared about before someone else didn't like it. Why? It's not the reason I like the game. I don't benefit from it being true or false. And even if that bit of the game does matter, why does the eventual positive or negative reputation of Tyranny effect me?

There's some communal empathy in it, it's fun to like things that others like and dislike the things others dislike. Hence social media bubbles and polarised elections and all that. To some extent we're hardwired to come to consensus as part of the way we share ideas and people who interrupt that or challenge your position are 'spoiling' your enjoyment. And there's some status stuff, you're cool if you like cool stuff and you're less cool if you like bad stuff, so there's some vested motivation in defending your position and having others thinkalike.

I'm not saying those would be conscious motivations for people, but they could be unconscious motivators. You could make sense of those effects being amplified when more money is involved too. (Or possibly 'effort'. Maybe people are more defensive about things they invest a lot of time into? But then Mass Effect doesn't make much sense)


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EDIT: I'll be surprised if Andromeda is as bad as the RPS guy was saying, it seemed pretty hyperbolic.

There's also that two tier videogame thing where first people are just amazed that a game's functional (which is where most reviews stop), and then only later do people ask if it's actually doing something good with that functionality (which is where people like Campster and Shamus come in).

The stuff the RPS guy is talking about all sounds like 2nd tier stuff, so that's got to add to the pushback. Gaming fandoms as a hive mind, tend to care more about 1st tier stuff (is it 'big', is it pay2win, is it buggy, does it look good, are there characters)
Last edited by Thomas on Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Gushing/ranting about interesting games in development

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:34 pm

Thomas wrote:I'm not sure it's a true theory though.


The behavior of no man sky fans does support it.There was no nostalgia behind it,only the money people sunk into preordering and the time they spent reading every bit of sparse info they managed to find.
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The Rocketeer

Re: Gushing/ranting about interesting games in development

Postby The Rocketeer » Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:45 pm

"Waiter, I'd like to send this burger back; there's literally nothing in it."
Ninety-Three

Re: Gushing/ranting about interesting games in development

Postby Ninety-Three » Fri Mar 17, 2017 1:32 am

I just realized something about Mass Effect Andromeda. It's a bit of a mess (Ryder's janky face popping onscreen makes me laugh out loud), and nevermind how it got that way, why is EA giving us a demo of their mess? It is inconceivable that EA are not aware of the glaring flaws present in their game, and it goes against every principle of videogame marketing to give a free demo that won't blow people away. I can imagine that maybe all of Bioware's facial animators quit and had to be replaced with a team of partially trained chimps, but what I find truly baffling is that EA's marketing department looked at the result and deemed it not just acceptable, but so strong that they would offer a lengthy demo.
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Sudanna

Re: Gushing/ranting about interesting games in development

Postby Sudanna » Fri Mar 17, 2017 3:03 am

It's entirely possible that there are just lots of people with bad taste that uncritically like bad things and defend them because they genuinely like them.
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The Rocketeer

Re: Gushing/ranting about interesting games in development

Postby The Rocketeer » Fri Mar 17, 2017 3:15 am

Take that shit somewhere else.
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Humanoid

Re: Gushing/ranting about interesting games in development

Postby Humanoid » Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:41 am

Ninety-Three wrote:I just realized something about Mass Effect Andromeda. It's a bit of a mess (Ryder's janky face popping onscreen makes me laugh out loud), and nevermind how it got that way, why is EA giving us a demo of their mess? It is inconceivable that EA are not aware of the glaring flaws present in their game, and it goes against every principle of videogame marketing to give a free demo that won't blow people away. I can imagine that maybe all of Bioware's facial animators quit and had to be replaced with a team of partially trained chimps, but what I find truly baffling is that EA's marketing department looked at the result and deemed it not just acceptable, but so strong that they would offer a lengthy demo.


Well the demo was announced months ahead of time by presumably the same people that set unrealistic development deadlines in general.

I don't know how much of the facial animation process is normally done by machine, as compared the amount of human oversight in cleaning up the results, but it sure looks like Bioware just skipped that second part altogether. Which matches the observations from their facial scanning process too, looks like they just hit the "scan now" button and took the result as-is.
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4th Dimension

Re: Gushing/ranting about interesting games in development

Postby 4th Dimension » Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:36 am

I think I'm more with Thomas on this. For passionate fandoms, money really shouldn't be the driving motivator. It's simply that you like something, or have convinced yourself this thing that you like is great (which is fine it's your mind after all), and now attacks against it feel like attacks on your opinions and ideals. It's how in past we identified ourselves which team do we cheer for and such, but today people identify with which type of game/franchise/entertainment they love and any percieved attacks against it feel like somebody stabbing keystone of you.* Now add 1000% of hormones to this voitile mix since most of those posting are probably teenagers under nuclear attack of hormones with their burning need to appear cool and adult while not really getting what being an adult means past being able to use "adult" language. And thus you get EXTREMELY toxic messages calling people all kind of names since... well they don't really understand what they are doing other than they are using forbidden languages and that certainly should make them adult right?
Furthermore Internet makes it so that hardly ever you are alone in liking something, and when you are discussing something you like with other people you like, echo chamber happens amplifying things. So simply liking something grows into devotion and is how you get mobs of people flooding comment sections in outrage. They want to show their fellows how cool they are by defending things they all like because the group consensus is that liking this thing is cool.

Hell you probably get practically the same effect for F2P games. I'm sure if tomorrow an article got posted on RPS about DotA or LoL slamming it, and even if it is the most reasonable thing you will get people defending it to death and calling the poster names.

Money sunk could be playing an issue, but if you preordered something you are probably allready a fan of that type of thing. In my view it's mostly group mentality and teenage anger (and some older people not knowing better).

* And here I'm talking from experience because I have experienced this. I have some fanchises/things that for some reason simply click with me. Intellectually I know that they are not the greatest thing since sliced bread but they are for me. As such is somebody is slamming them I do not feel good about that and have an instinctual reaction to come to their defense. HELL I'm doing it right now for the third season of Nanoha, BUT I am trying really hard to behave like an adult I am about this and while I might write a *chekcs* 40k words long (with notes) explanation why I think it's not as bad as the other person thinks I don't make personal attacks at my opponent.
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Ringwraith

Re: Gushing/ranting about interesting games in development

Postby Ringwraith » Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:48 am

Considering this game seems to being made by a comparatively new branch (they did the DLCs and Multiplayer) and it seems quite likely they didn't get the support form the more experienced parts of the company with things like animations, the missteps make a lot of sense.
Although some of the voice direction seems terrible and the writing has some really awful lines in it too. This sometimes combines, which is horrific.
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Retsam

Re: Gushing/ranting about interesting games in development

Postby Retsam » Fri Mar 17, 2017 3:33 pm

Daemian Lucifer wrote:
Ninety-Three wrote:
Retsam wrote:I will say, John Walker is the guy who opened with "Do you think that you're a pathological liar?" when interviewing Peter Molyneux, so I don't have the highest esteem in his journalistic integrity.


Why does that question impugn his journalistic integrity?


Indeed.Since when was honesty detrimental to journalism?


I really don't care to have this debate (again), but opening an interview with a slap-in-the-face insult to the person you're interviewing strikes me as massively unprofessional. There are a million ways to have phrased that question far more diplomatically (and not leading with it may have helped), and I do think it's the job of an interviewer to be somewhat diplomatic, if only for pragmatic reasons: someone's not going to be very open with you if you immediately attack them and throw them onto the defensive.

It just felt to me that John Walker was acting as an angry fan rather than as a professional conducting an interview and I don't think the games industry really needs more spite and vitrol.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Gushing/ranting about interesting games in development

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Fri Mar 17, 2017 3:42 pm

Retsam wrote:There are a million ways to have phrased that question far more diplomatically


He is a journalist,not a diplomat.
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Retsam

Re: Gushing/ranting about interesting games in development

Postby Retsam » Fri Mar 17, 2017 3:44 pm

I like how you cut out my explanation of why I think diplomacy is an important attribute in an interviewer when you quoted me. That was a nice touch.
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Daemian Lucifer

Re: Gushing/ranting about interesting games in development

Postby Daemian Lucifer » Fri Mar 17, 2017 4:17 pm

Because its irrelevant.Sure,one way you can get a story is by cozying up to them and trying to get them to tell you what you need.But its not the only way.Sometimes being blunt and direct is much better.
Ninety-Three

Re: Gushing/ranting about interesting games in development

Postby Ninety-Three » Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:35 pm

Retsam wrote:I do think it's the job of an interviewer to be somewhat diplomatic, if only for pragmatic reasons: someone's not going to be very open with you if you immediately attack them and throw them onto the defensive.


For the sake of the argument, let's grant that John Walker is a tactless jerk who sucks at doing interviews. Why are you using that to cast aspersions on his videogame reviews? Those things are completely unrelated.

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