Pokemon Fire Red RTR: Team Invasive Species

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Trix2000
Location: California

Re: Pokemon Fire Red RTR: Team Invasive Species

Postby Trix2000 » Sun Jul 16, 2017 6:23 pm

SpammyV wrote:“Wait what were the guys on the water going to do if we just rushed right on through?”

Clearly, they all have guns and would just shoot trespassers. :P

i don’t have a problem or obsession or anything, but...

Suspiciously specific denial...

gen 1 has a really short and not very complex Victory Road. understandable i guess

It's rather funny to me in retrospect, because back for young me it was an incredibly complex and daunting dungeon. Even now it still kind-of holds in my head as one of the trickier VRs, but it really isn't that large.
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SpammyV
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Re: Pokemon Fire Red RTR: Team Invasive Species

Postby SpammyV » Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:05 pm

So as I settle in to grind my everloving butt off and slowly grow numb as I watch Twitch streams or listen to podcasts, I get to decide about final movesets. I don't have as many options on this team as I did on Don't Call Me Lance, but there's still some options. For example, I could give Noriko the tried-and-true international bestseller Hyper Beam...

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Or I could break out and have some fun and give her Mega Kick...

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Trix2000
Location: California

Re: Pokemon Fire Red RTR: Team Invasive Species

Postby Trix2000 » Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:29 pm

Personally I don't like either - Hyper Beam for losing a turn and Mega Kick for the 75% accuracy. The fact that neither can exploit type advantages is also concerning, as is no STAB.

If I had to pick between the two (sounds like you might be limited on choices anyways), I'd say Hyper Beam if only because it's still a physical move in that game and could be a decent alpha-strike sort of thing. Mega Kick may hit kinda hard, but missing one out of every four attacks is not appealing to me (Though Hyper Beam is also not 100% which is meh).

Personally, I tend to rely on the 100% high-end moves like Flamethrower, Earthquake, etc whenever possible. 80-90 power is usually plenty for endgame, especially if you can back it up with weakness and/or STAB bonus. An 80 power move that hits a weakness hits harder than Hyper Beam by itself with no other downsides, with the caveat being that you have to have the situation wherein you can exploit a weakness to get it.
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Supahewok

Re: Pokemon Fire Red RTR: Team Invasive Species

Postby Supahewok » Sun Jul 16, 2017 8:23 pm

Hyper Beam is *excellent* as a finisher, particularly against foes to whom you could only apply neutral damage to anyways. Timed right, it'll push through the danger zone where the enemy will use a Full Restore, which definitely offsets the lost turn. As for Mega Kick, anything sub-80 Accuracy is too chancy for my tastes for when the chips are down, which is likely to happen in at least one Elite 4 match.
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The Rocketeer

Re: Pokemon Fire Red RTR: Team Invasive Species

Postby The Rocketeer » Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:12 am

I'm pretty skittish about accuracy; I feel like anything below 90% is just begging the invincible cock of the RNG to set up shop deep, deep in your sigmoid colon to throw a fit whenever it's most inconvenient. I mean, if a move has 100 power and 80% accuracy, it effectively has 80 power, since over an arbitrary number of turns, it'll tend to deal around 80 damage a turn, ignoring defense. But in a real battle, which isn't going to last n turns, a move that misses once and then one-hit KO's the opponent the next turn effectively had its damage halved, and thirded if it misses twice, which will happen 20% and 4% of the time, respectively. That's one or two extra enemy moves you'll have to suffer, too. I much prefer dependable, consistent damage; I know what I'm getting with more certainty, so I can plan ahead better. And moves that reduce your accuracy or improve your opponent's evasion are pretty damn common, while moves that increase a user's accuracy are comparatively quite rare; they're aggravating statuses even when you're starting from theoretically perfect accuracy in the first place, much less when a lot of your offensive power was tied up in a move that's little more reliable than a coin flip after a single-stage decrease in effective accuracy.

I lost a bit of sleep trying to figure out a way to sneak an accuracy-increasing move like Hone Claws onto Hitmonlee, to try and get High Jump Kick's accuracy as high as possible, and it's already 90% accurate to begin with. From a Hitmonlee with the Reckless ability, High Jump Kick has 234 base power, but you take half your max HP in recoil damage if you miss. The sticking point was that I needed a move that would increase the user's accuracy, not lower the opponent's evasion; if I need to lower an opponent's evasion before each time I cave its health bar in with a supermove, I might as well just use Close Combat and just live with the defensive debuffs. By improving the user's base accuracy instead, that one buff frees up Hitmonlee to one-shot multiple opponents in a row, keeping High Jump Kick's effective power as close to 234 as possible without a significant risk of a catastrophic self-own. Don't know why I didn't just settle for holding a Wide Lens, which— if I understand the effect— would make High Jump Kick 99% accurate. In the end, I never got around to raising that rail-gun-kick Hitmonlee.
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Supahewok

Re: Pokemon Fire Red RTR: Team Invasive Species

Postby Supahewok » Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:36 am

The Rocketeer wrote:snip


The only sub-90 Accuracy move I generally use in my lineup is Stone Edge. Rock is one of the 5 best Offensive types (for those that don't know: Rock, Fire, Ice, Ground, and Fighting are considered the standard for offensive typing, as they have the most super effective typings; 4 for Rock, Fire, and Ice, and 5 for Ground and Fighting), with wide coverage on Flying and countering offensive powerhouses Fire and Ice. It unfortunately suffers from not having a move in that sweet spot of around 90-95 both for power and accuracy, like your Flamethrowers and Surfs and Psychics. There's Rock Slide at 75 power and 90 accuracy, and Stone Edge for 100 power and 80 accuracy. That's all you got (for physical attacks anyway, which most rock types are statted for).

Rock Slide has a redeeming factor in that it's got a 30% chance to cause flinch, but 75 power is still really low for endgame moves. And most Rock types are on the slower side, which makes it harder for that flinching bonus to count. So I generally go for Stone Edge. It's got an increased crit chance to help counter that mathematical accuracy tradeoff you mentioned. In Gen 6 onward, If your Poke is holding on to a Razor Claw, that's a 50% chance to crit and do an extra 50% damage, turning the move into a Hyper Beam with STAB and no cooldown. Get a Focus Energy in, and that's a 100% crit chance. That's worth the 10% trade off in accuracy, to me anyway.
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The Rocketeer

Re: Pokemon Fire Red RTR: Team Invasive Species

Postby The Rocketeer » Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:08 am

Checking it now (because I had to check, of course), the only Pokémon that can learn High Jump Kick AND have the Reckless ability are Hitmonlee, Mienfoo, and Mienshao; neither can learn either Hone Claws or Coil, which are the ONLY two moves that increase user accuracy (aside from Acupressure but fuck that). However, there are five Pokémon that can learn both High Jump Kick and Hone Claws: three Pokémon in the Blaziken line, Hawlucha, and Lucario, the last of which can have High Jump Kick if it's bred onto a Riolu. Hawlucha has the least base Attack at 92. Lucario and Blaziken can both Megavolve, and their regular/Mega forms have 110/145 base Attack for Lucario, and 120/160 base attack for Blaziken. Does that put Blaziken over the top? Nope! I like Lucario's typing and overall stat distribution better, but nevermind that. For EXTINCTION LEVEL IMPACT KICK purposes, Mega Lucario's ability changes to Adaptability, which increases STAB from 1.5x to 2x. That's 260 base power High Jump Kick before using Hone Claws, which also increases Attack by one stage while making High Jump Kick a 100% accuracy move. I'd say that more than makes up for not exploiting the 20% damage boost from Reckless.

Man, I should play one of these Pokémon games some day. I think I could make a solid go of it.
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SpammyV
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Re: Pokemon Fire Red RTR: Team Invasive Species

Postby SpammyV » Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:59 am

Alright, I've given things some thought and also found out that there's a tutor for Double-Edge to cover Noriko's "Ridiculously powerful Normal move" slot. She's got Iron Tail and Rock Slide for STAB. And for her last slot, I've looked a bit and did find another Physical, 100 Accuracy move: Brick Break.

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The Rocketeer

Re: Pokemon Fire Red RTR: Team Invasive Species

Postby The Rocketeer » Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:26 am

Speaking of Noriko, and of recoil damage, and of exploiting abilities, and of breeding moves onto Pokémon that can't normally learn them, and Double-Edge, I've always kinda wanted to raise up an Onix and take advantage of its Rock Head ability; I hate recoil damage, generally already having enough trouble keeping my team alive without it, so I never use those moves. But with Rock Head, you remove the drawback on some really powerful attacks. As with Noriko, Double-Edge is the natural choice at 120 base power and 100% accuracy. But I always want bigger damage, and there are a lot of 80-power STAB moves out there that don't need to be mitigated with a very specific ability to avoid self-ownage, and which might have other benefits as well like status infliction or stat changes.

The natural conclusion is to teach Onix Head Smash, which is a 150 base power Rock-type move. Strong, but it returns half of damage inflicted as recoil damage, which I believe is the steepest recoil damage in the game (not counting Jump Kick/High Jump Kick crash damage). Also, there's the fact Onix can't learn Head Smash *sad trombone*. But did you know there's a Rock-type Pokémon with Rock Head that can have Head Smash bred onto it? It's Aron! 225 effective power from STAB and no recoil. The other, other downside to Head Smash is that it only has 80% accuracy, which would normally disqualify it for my purposes. But you know what the Aggron line can learn? My old friend Hone Claws, which just barely raises Head Smash to 100% accuracy while boosting Attack and freshening your breath. That's a license to commit unkind deeds.
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Trix2000
Location: California

Re: Pokemon Fire Red RTR: Team Invasive Species

Postby Trix2000 » Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:48 am

You just have to hope someone doesn't run a semi-fast Earthquake, or worse Focus Blast. Aggron's got some great defenses and such, but taking 4x damage from anything is pretty damn bad... and Aggron is pretty slow, so opens up room to just get nuked down in the wrong match-up. You better hope it's a physical move too...

The Rocketeer wrote:I'm pretty skittish about accuracy; I feel like anything below 90% is just begging the invincible cock of the RNG to set up shop deep, deep in your sigmoid colon to throw a fit whenever it's most inconvenient...

Yeah, I tend to prefer 100% accuracy moves above pretty much anything else, with exceptions depending on options and needed coverage. Losing a turn of damage for any reason seems like a huge loss in my book, and I always bet on the RNG picking the worst moment to miss. Even 90-95% makes me twitch a little, since I still see it as "1-in-10" and "1-in-20" moves missing.

I make exception for certain moves, most notably Will-o-Wisp (burn is soooooo good), but otherwise I prefer reliability over almost everything.

SpammyV wrote:Alright, I've given things some thought and also found out that there's a tutor for Double-Edge to cover Noriko's "Ridiculously powerful Normal move" slot. She's got Iron Tail and Rock Slide for STAB. And for her last slot, I've looked a bit and did find another Physical, 100 Accuracy move: Brick Break.

Brick Break is a great move, albeit slightly weak for endgame... but it suffices. Fighting type has some great coverage, and 65 power is nothing to sneeze at if you can exploit weakness with it. A surprising number of Pokemon can learn the move too.

The barrier-breaking is just the cherry on top, since you so rarely run into those.
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Re: Pokemon Fire Red RTR: Team Invasive Species

Postby SpammyV » Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:43 am

Also returning is my sore temptation to find a working infinite money cheat so I can buy enough Game Corner coins to get some TMs. Ringo would probably like Shadow Ball. Ice Beam would be an upgrade over Aurora Beam for Ambrose, but not a strictly necessary upgrade I suppose. I kind of want Iron Tail for Belinda, because even though Noriko has Steel attacks locked down, it'd be some more range for Belinda. Heck I could give Belinda Toxic. As far as this team goes she's got a decent Speed stat and good Physical Defense. She could stick someone with Toxic then last it out. If she wasn't, y'know, going to beat the opponent senseless.
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Re: Pokemon Fire Red RTR: Team Invasive Species

Postby SpammyV » Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:52 am

So as the endgame approaches, it's time for the FINAL TEAM UPDATE!

Ambrose:
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Something that I don't think I've mentioned is that Ambrose would take regular damage from Fire-type attacks, except that Thick Fat halves Fire damage, effectively restoring his resistance.

While slow, his attacks certainly have heft. 145 in the relevant attack stat is pretty good by this team's standards.

With the limited move sets in this generation I never have gotten something to replace Defense Curl. I mean, I could feed him a Hyper Beam TM, but we've got Body Slam right now to fill the "Generic damage" category. He could take the Earthquake TM I suppose, and be another option against... Poison? He's not going to use it against a Steel type anytime soon, remember that this is a Gen 1 remake.

Noriko:
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Heheheheheheheheh just look at her Defense stat. She's like a brick wall backed up by another brick wall supported by a cinderblock wall and buried under 10 feet of earth. I shouldn't need to but I'm sorely tempted to throw her out against Bruno's Machamp just to see how well she can weather a strong Fighting type attack. 4x effective, sure, but TWO HUNDRED AND FORTY-SIX DEFENSE.

She gets to use Double-Edge for free, which is nice. Iron Tail and Rock Slide are a little less than accurate, but she's made out of bricks and bricks and cinder blocks and so on. Odds are high she can weather anything thrown at her until she can finally connect- Although I'd probably want to switch her out quickly if her accuracy gets lowered when she needs to be using her STAB moves.

Kazumi:
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In the end, with two team members that know Psychic, I decided that Kazumi didn't really need Extrasensory and that I could keep Fake Out for its niche usefulness and also how it amuses me so much to use. There's an element of risk in using Sunny Day, but she's actually the fastest member of the team, so the one most suited for firing off four free Solar Beams over the next four turns. That's four 180 power attacks with her decent Special Attack stat.

She has decent stats, but I think her somewhat lower total is a product of her not evolving with a fixed level. Technically, as soon as you get a Nuzleaf you could have a Shiftry, so I imagine there's a bit of balancing there whereas you can't get a Walrein or Aggron until they're in the 40s.

I mean, there's also hacks to force an encounter with them that you can use in low-level areas to get a level 2 Walrein but Gamefreak probably didn't build the game's balance curve around you hacking.

Belinda:
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Belinda did get a Hyper Beam TM, because let's face it. This is pre Gen IV, where Game Freak wasn't going around to give every Pokemon interesting movesets with cool tutor moves and fully-evolved forms having Level 1 attacks tucked away you can go to a Move Relearner to grab.

How does Belinda use Hyper Beam? I'm going to imagine she points her trunk at them and blasts a beam out like she's a tank made out of angrily rolling into people and causing Earthquakes and shooting them with beams.

In many ways, Belinda is like Faster Noriko. Similar distribution (sans Defense of course) and inclination: Be tough and hit things a bunch.

Ringo:
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Ringo, who has been fully evolved the whole time, honestly shows it in his stat totals and some of the moves he learns. In particular, that he learned Take Down and Double Edge naturally. Reminder that Ringo is basically a windchime and weighs three pounds.

He got the Shock Wave TM... basically just because. It was there, he can learn it, it runs off his main attack stat, and it diversifies the typing of his attacks. I could also spend just about half of my total money getting him the Shadow Ball TM from the Game Corner. It'd be another point of diversity, although Ghost type attacks are Physical for reasons unknown to the author.

Rest assured, when he starts using Psychic, he will think plenty hard enough to put a hurt on things.

Tidehollow:
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Tidehollow has the highest Special Defense of the team and pretty high Defense. And if he uses Reflect then his Defense gets pumped to 162, which is pretty high for this team (not counting Noriko, of course). Honestly I could give Tidehollow the Toxic TM, replacing Take Down. He's defensive enough in both areas.

Unfortunately the fact that this is not yet Gen IV and so there is a phsyical and special split. The fact that he cannot have Special Normal and Flying attacks holds him back a bit, even though it's still the best that we can do, at least for Flying moves.



Incidentally, I'd like to share a bit on how I got to this point: The patch of grass south of Pallet Town. You might think that I'd train at Victory Road where things are at a high level, but the problem is that the range of XP rewards is too high. When you encounter a Marowak or something you can get 700, almost 800 XP. But when you meet the far more common Zubats and Geodudes you get close to 200. The floor of the rewards is next to nothing, it'd be more worth it to cherry pick battles and run from every Zubat, but that wastes time running when I could be getting XP and getting closer to being done grinding.

That patch that's below Pallet Town has Tangelas whose levels are in the mid-twenties, which wouldn't seem to be worth fighting- Except that the payouts range from about 450-600. The floor is high enough that everything is worth battling, and all goes down in one hit. That consistency is what I was really looking for, especially since I'm playing on a 360 controller and have bound fast forward to one of the shoulder buttons, so I spent a lot of time holding down R1 while watching Twitch streams and grinding level 24 Tangelas.

I don't necessarily hate grinding. I think it's something of a necessary evil, unless you're willing to structure your game to such an extent that you can scale everything to a level curve, similar to how even if you went to high level areas first in Divinity II, by the end of the game you'd end up at roughly the same level as someone who'd done it all in "order." But when your only real grinding area has half of its enounters handing out 200 XP or being full of such tough enemies that every battle is work and you can only do a small number before healing, it becomes a chore, and that is where grinding gets intolerable.

But hopefully Arceus willing, 60 will get me through to the end.

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